What IFS....

[bigcop97]

I cant sleep, I worked my regular third shift last night, I am to jacked up to lay down...let me clarify something as well... I am not the kind of jacked up that I am really excited and giddy about something. I am honestly bothered by this incident. Let me tell ya bout my night...

Around bar close 2:00 AM we had a call of a fight in progress in front of one of our bars. I hear another unit arrive on scene just prior to me getting to it. A few seconds later I hear that unit is in a foot pursuit with a subject. I see the chase and the guy gets about a block down the street and I bale out of my car with the other officer close behind and we take the guy down to the ground. Pretty sweet takedown... unfortunately we were just getting going.

Suspect is described as 25 year old white male, 6'2 220LBs not a LB of fat on him, drunk as a skunk, slick with sweat, bleeding, strong and mean as hell.

The fight is on and using every tactic including physical strength we cant get this guy cuffed. We have a dog pile on him... but he gets up a few times to his knees with me and the other officer hanging on him. I get a couple good blasts of OC in his face. Both me and the other officer are giving this guys knees to the side and nothing is working. At one point the guy gets up on all fours and I give him a good knee to the side. We roll over on the other officer. At this time a couple other officers arrive on scene.

The other officer originally with me yells GUN GUN GUN!! and we realize that the suspect has his hands on the officers gun. on the bottom of the pile. As several officers force the hand away I crack the guy in the side of the face with my elbow... we finally get the guy cuffed up. Just when the Taser arrives, we only have two on the street.

My partner originally in the fight has a broken wrist. It happened when we rolled. I am skinned up and sore, but ok.

Suspect starts ranting about how he is going to kill us all and how he does not want to live anymore.

I did not tell anyone really, I have been in fights and stuff as a cop, but I have never had a real real problem handling a guy, being a big guy myself. This was the worst fight I have been in... This whole incident has me kind of questioning the big what if's... has me kind of questioning whether being a cop is really worth all of this...

You ever have days you come home and wonder why the hell you keep doing this job...

[cst.sb]

Was there something in the water this week??

Glad your safe!

We had two fights this block that left sore and beat up. One was a mental guy (no tazer) but thankfully he was fighting to get away. It took four of us and eventually an ambulance to transport im because even cuffed four of us couldn't get him in car.

And my 10:33 post...

There are lots of times I have thought about the what if's... I was an auxiliary for 8 years and I will be the first to say being a reserve or auxiliary is no where near the same as being a cop full-time.

So, I packed it in when twins were born and thought it was getting dangerous out there. A couple years went by and I think I missed it everyday. Kind of like that one crazy girl in high school, you only remember how hot she was.. haha..

So I talked it over with the wife and applied and joined the force as a regular member.

What bothers me now is that the bad guys are bad guys full time, and in canada there is the expectation that you throw your tools in your locker and turn off the cop on your days off. And a hockey stick isn't the best defence tool if a goof does a drive-by of home on days off.

My guess is that is you leave, you will always miss it in some way.

Hang in there buddy and I'll send you down some Canadian beer to ease your pain.

[Cruiser]

Bigcop, yeah, that crap happens and more often than it should. Nothing new and it is something you have to just accept and try and learn the best methods you can to subdue a subject, and I mean whatever you need to do to protect yourself and others. I came from and area that fighting with cops was considered okay the first time you encountered the guy and was a test of manhood for some reason. You just took him down as fast as you could and he respected you after that. There are always going to be times when you find someone a half to full bubble off and it is amazing what these nuts can do. Just stay safe and use whatever you have to to protect your life. If that means breaking things or even crippleing or killing the guy, then so be it. I hope it will never come to that extreme but you have to understand it is an option that is there as a last resort and accept that fact. I was not a big guy by any means and more than once in a fight I have asked myself "what in the hell are you doing this for you idiot!". It is for those that cannot protect themselves and to try and keep the wolves at bay. Is it worth it? You have to honestly answer that question yourself. I felt it was and still do. Even though this profession crippled me and left me in pain for the rest of my life I still feel that it was well worth it as I saved a number of lives that may contribute to something that will not only allow them and countless generation afterwards to enjoy life, but maybe one of those people will do something great for mankind. Kinda sappy and yeah, even big-headed I guess, but it may well happen.

[Quopper]

As a new officer still in training and not on the streets yet, I am glad that the experienced LEO's like you post these topics.

It is a good reminder to me, to watch out and be prepared. Not like I don't think that already, but it helps to hear about the realities on the street. I am not the type of person that says "It will never happen to me", I am more the type that says "When it happens to me". I am excited to be a part of the LEO family, and I do believe there is a reason why we all choose this profession. Yes, it can hurt us, Yes it can kill us....But what is the greater good, so to speak??

Bigcop - I am glad to hear that you were not injured, and that your fellow officer only had a minor injury. I would say continue to kick *** and take names, you are doing it because of your love for the job. Also continue to post these threads, it is a great resource and reality check for all officers, not just us newbies.

Thank you

[GrayW4442]

Bro dont worry about, I understand being worked up after a big fight we all experience that, but you cant second guess what happened. When you mix alcohol and whatever else he was on he feels no pain. The biggest fight I was ever in was with a 5'5", 140lbs meth head. LOL he tossed my *** around like a rag doll, I kept trying to disengage and back up until I could get some help there but he would just keep charging me, it seemed like forever before I got help there. It took five of us to subdue the guy and cuff him, by then I was physically drained and I was sore as hell the next day.

[bigcop97]

Thank you all so far for taking the time to respond... I really appreciate all your comments...

I am going to the store today to get my buddy a get-well card.

I dont have to work the street for the next few nights. I am going to do my favorite non-work, Destress stuff. Jogging, Bike Riding, and NCAA 2005 on my Playstation 2...

Come Wednesday night I think I will be ready to hit the road again. I am not going to let one stupid drunk ruin what I love...

[Quopper]

Thank you all so far for taking the time to respond... I really appreciate all your comments...

I am going to the store today to get my buddy a get-well card.

I dont have to work the street for the next few nights. I am going to do my favorite non-work, Destress stuff. Jogging, Bike Riding, and NCAA 2005 on my Playstation 2...

Come Wednesday night I think I will be ready to hit the road again. I am not going to let one stupid drunk ruin what I love...

Good for you! Why don't you pop one cold one too, if you don't drink, let me know and I will toast you and your buddy tonight for kicking *** on the street!

[jakflak]

You just described my nightmare: a guy who won't go down.

Keep in mind, you did it right. You won. It sounds like you have the jitters now; that's totally normal. You don't go through something like that without being nervous about it happening again. I've been there more than once; it takes time to get over. It's normal.

It also helps to debrief with the guys who were there. It helps a lot. If not with the guys who were there, try another cop. Preferably the grumpy old one that's counting the days until retirement; he's been there and knows what you mean.

There's nothing dishonorable about walking away, but don't do it before you've killed the dragon. Walking away with the jitters unresolved will leave something inside of you that's never quite right. Face it. Talk about it. Fix it first. Then decide whether or not to leave. It will leave you stronger no matter what you end up doing.

You did a good job. You did your job right and you're alive to prove it. You have what it takes to do it right next time too. That's why he's in jail and you're still alive.

IM me if you want to talk.

[72na55]

been there bro

Thank you all so far for taking the time to respond... I really appreciate all your comments...

I am going to the store today to get my buddy a get-well card.

I dont have to work the street for the next few nights. I am going to do my favorite non-work, Destress stuff. Jogging, Bike Riding, and NCAA 2005 on my Playstation 2...

Come Wednesday night I think I will be ready to hit the road again. I am not going to let one stupid drunk ruin what I love...

I still have nightmares about the 4bm's who had me down and were trying to disarm me over 15 years ago. I won that fight. But I still wake up fighting them. Sooner or later and especially the longer you stay active on the streets, you will find that incident that sticks to you. Talking about it helps. Reliving it in your quiet times doesn't. Obviously you did the right thing because you won. I took my stress out by taking a ground fighting course. It helped me a lot as I know I don't have to hand to hand tussle anymore. I practice and practice and even play out in my mind (on traffic stops and such) what I will do if this or that happens. It keeps me sharp and focused on going home in one piece. You are experiencing some post trauma stuff that will go away. Don't blame the job or anyone. Congratulate yourself for doing one hell of a job. You have the winning attitude and as long as you have survival mentality you will be ok. Rely on your training and never get to the point where you know enough. I'm in this going on my 24th year and I can't wait to go to work tomorrow. Good luck and good job bro.

[whitehat]

Good Job man you did the right thing by hanging with your partner till the job is done. Would be proud to have you as my partner cause I would know that when it got tough and nasty you would be with me to the end! I can understand being jacked after the incident, it's what keeps and lets us know were alive. Doing what ever it takes my be necessary sometimes including but not limited to breaking things like bones and joints, WHAT EVER IT TAKES to survive and win. Bad guy still goes to jail and you and your partner go home. Talking with others about the incident has helped me to debrief in the past. Our local PD had an experience some the same with a buff meth head, HE did a full push up with two Officers on his back, Wo! They fianally got him cuffed when the thrid Officer arrived. He lifts and keeps himself in shape. You have the opportunity to learn from the incedent. I have found that joint locking martial arts and ground fighting classes boost confidence and ability. Be safe.

The best way for evil to win is for a good man to do nothing!

[Migraman]

A few years back I came very close to shooting a 15 year old kid. I thank God that I didn't have to do it. It was an ADW situation, he was coming at me after repeated warnings. I was literally watching the hammer come back when my partner blindsided him and took him down, it was that close. Well we "corrected" him after a pretty healthy knockdown dragout fight. Funny thing is that this wiry little 15 y/o 130 lb turd gave us probably one of the hardest fights I've ever been in.

Post incident when everything calmed down I did alot of thinking about it. I mean it bothered me bad that I had almost killed a kid. My mind totally minimized the fact that he was trying to take me out. I came very close to resigning over it. Talking to some of my trusted coworkers really helped.

To answer your question there is nothing wrong with what if'ing an incident. I think it is healthy to review what happened and analyze what was done right/wrong and even visualize how alternatives may have turned out.

However I think it is unhealthy to dwell on it for too long and let it eat you up. I'm glad everything turned out well in the end for you and your partners. A jacked up wrist isn't too bad considering the idiot was trying for a gun. Chalk it up to experience and move on bro.

[Bodie]

All Bets Were Off

Drunk or Not once the guy went for an officers gun he changed the rules of engagement and all bets were off and it was no longer just a fight with a drunk. At that point anything you had was "legal". A flashlight a PR, anything to stop this guy and I mean stop him.

It was no longer just a fight with a drunk it was a fight for your life. If he had taken control of a gun you or another officer would have been shot and perhaps killed.

Could you have shot him ? Once he was going for the gun and actually had his determined drunkne hands on it he was toast.

Could you have knocked his *** out and sent him to a trauma center fighting for his life Oh yeah .He was about to kill a cop because it was not his intent to just take a single officers gun. It was his intent to gaing control of a police officers gun and kill a cop.

Next time all bets are off and you put somebody like this down.

By the way could you back up and fill us in on this guy's criminal record ?

I don't except that a guy won't go down. They will if you decide to use all you have to get the job done especially in a struggle where officers are getting hurt and he is intent on disarming an officer. He will go down and won't get back up.

[bigcop97]

Your right Bodie,
You cant accept defeat, everyone will go down...

I actually had not really gone to hard-core striking in the face/back area till I knew that he was going for a gun.

I was giving him knees in the side, but nothing really more prior to that, and that was to keep him down. Once I knew a gun grab was going on... I thought we were in trouble for sure. I was already tired... Thats when I hit him in the face... I was going to do whatever it took at that time...

This guy has two prior assaults on a peace officer, once when he was arrested for OWI and once for Public INTOX. Those are his only two priors. Looks like he has a habit of fighting when he is arrested.

Stay safe

[GrayW4442]

Does your state take assault on a LEO serious? The reason I ask is it seems that our DA doesnt take it too serious in Tennessee.

[bigcop97]

Does your state take assault on a LEO serious? The reason I ask is it seems that our DA doesnt take it too serious in Tennessee.

Your run of the mill assault on a peace officer is just a midemeanor. I dont think it is taken serious enough. In this particular case the guy caught a felony attempt to disarm a peace officer.... DA will plead it down to a regular assault probably though...

Quick Update... I had court today on a traffic ticket, I was sitting with some cops in the waiting area waiting to testify and telling them about this guy. Once of them said that he knew the guy pretty well. He said that he knows that the guy is a steroid user... He lifts constantly and is always starting fights with people....

I feel a little better about not being able to handle him right away now...