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  • Interesting perspective

    Yesterday I re-read Grossman's essay, Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs".

    Last night I worked an overtime shift and found myself, "baaaa-ing" to myself as I people watched. I know this sounds horrible, but people were fitting their roles to a tee.

    Near the end of event the security guards grabbed a guy to eject from the stadium. They had him in couple good wrist locks and had him pinned against a fence when concession employee ran over to yelling, "they're torturing him!". I thought to myself, awww.. the poor little lamb is upset, she saw a couple young sheep dogs bare their teeth. haha

    "Baaa"

    There was also couple times where the odd, "Now, there's our tax dollars at work", comments were made from drunks hiding safely in the stands. I thought to myself, "Ah, how cute a drunk little sheep feeling brave... Baa"

    Well, as I sit here writing this I am not sure how healthy this way of thinking is, but hey! it sure is fun!!!

    All joking aside, the essay really makes a lot of sense.

    here is a link if anyone's interested - http://www.ipocministries.org/sheeps.htm

  • #2
    Everyone should also check out Grossman's "The Bullet-Proof Mind" if they haven't already. I've got it on CD, I'm not sure if it is in print but it probably is. Its good stuff.
    "He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still"

    -Lao Tzu

    "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

    -Reinhold Niebuhr

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    • #3
      Thanks for the link, cst.sb! That's a good read!

      -Mac

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      • #4
        Check out the website as well, it is pretty neat!

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        • #5
          Sheeple

          I disagree with LTC. Grossman on major points. I spent my time exchanging wounds. Grossman does not have any combat experiance. He would be afraid of a cap gun.

          I do not know why anyone should listen to him. I did read the book, which is what it is all about. Sell, sell, sell.

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          • #6
            Well, apparently your the only one that feels that way since he was called in to pick the brains of just about every suspect of a school shooting since what? Jonesboro, Arkansas?

            I don't think you need combat experience to put together the facts he has an extrapolate the obvious information.

            Just out of curiosity, what, exactly, do you disagree with?
            You have no right to not be offended.-Neal Boortz

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Centurion44
              I don't think you need combat experience to put together the facts he has an extrapolate the obvious information.
              If it's true that Grossman has never been in a combat situation (I don't know), don't you think it's a wee bit presumptuous for him to write something called "On Killing", and for him to author a website called "Killology.com"?

              I would much rather read advice from someone like Evan Marshall, who was a Detroit cop and has actually been involved in multiple deadly force situations. Having experience in what you preach about (and charge money for others to hear about) does wonders for your credibility.
              Talk sense to a fool, and he will call you foolish - Euripides

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Delta784
                If it's true that Grossman has never been in a combat situation (I don't know), don't you think it's a wee bit presumptuous for him to write something called "On Killing", and for him to author a website called "Killology.com"?

                I would much rather read advice from someone like Evan Marshall, who was a Detroit cop and has actually been involved in multiple deadly force situations. Having experience in what you preach about (and charge money for others to hear about) does wonders for your credibility.
                I'm not certain whether he has been in a combat situation before or not. I do know that he is an ex-Airborne Ranger and he would have been one around the time of the Vietnam War (sorry conflict ) judging by his age. His book On Combat was excellent. It does a pretty good job of describing how it feels to use deadly force, to be shot, etc. during a deadly encounter. Mentally, physically, emotionally (before, during, and after).

                All of you guys know way more about all of this stuff than I do but, I would recommend the book.

                TRPR2B

                sorry guys, I forgot which forum I was in. My apologies.
                Be a leader, not a follower

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                • #9
                  Personally I thought "On Killing" was a good read. Will it help me as a police officer, sure.

                  The sheep, wolves and sheepdog I thought was a great read. It made a lot of sense to me. As far as his not being in combat, that is irrelevant if he has done the proper research and isn't talking out of his ***.

                  Take retired FBI proflier John Douglas for example, he didn't have to become a serial killer to catch serial killers or to write books about them.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Delta784
                    If it's true that Grossman has never been in a combat situation (I don't know), don't you think it's a wee bit presumptuous for him to write something called "On Killing", and for him to author a website called "Killology.com"?
                    Only if it conflicts with my personal world view. Which so far, it doesn't (generally speaking).

                    Originally posted by Delta784
                    I would much rather read advice from someone like Evan Marshall, who was a Detroit cop and has actually been involved in multiple deadly force situations. Having experience in what you preach about (and charge money for others to hear about) does wonders for your credibility.
                    Does the two point of views conflict? I try to look at the substance of the article rather than spend time analizing the man that wrote it. I read everything with an open enough mind to be willing to change my opinion of the author if later in life my personal experiences conflicts with their viewpoints.

                    For example, I disagree with Grossman that "everytime I walk out my door without a gun" I'm a "sheep". Because a sheep to me is someone who doesn't have a battle plan, which I always do. My plan of self-defense doesn't always necesitate a gun. His apparently do. *shrug*
                    You have no right to not be offended.-Neal Boortz

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                    • #11
                      I have literally read EVERY piece of non-fiction that Grossman has penned. "On Killing" is an aweseome book, however I found his new book, "On Combat", to be WAY better. It came out last september and I'm on my third reading of it. I have also had the pleasure of meeting the man and seeing him speak in person twice.

                      You're right, I don't believe that he has combat experience. However, he is a fully trained psychologist and Lt.Col from US Army (retired) served in Ranger Battalion and the Army thought enough of him to ask him to teach at West Point teaching our Army's future leaders the psychology of combat and how to survive and lead.

                      He has also worked extensively with MANY police psychologists and experts (Alexis Artwhol and numerous others). This experience has lent him the knowledge and expertise that would allow ANY cop to learn from him.

                      Refusing to listen to his knowledge and expertise on his subjects because he didn't "trade wounds" is like refusing to go to a heart surgeon for your heart attack because he never had one.
                      Nobody ever wants to have to fight, but its a darn good idea for someone to know how.

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                      • #12
                        I had an instructor in my acadamy that did a couple of tours in vietnam. He saw some of the toughest action anyone has ever seen. He was also involved in two shootings as a police officer. A marine. Thirty plus years in law enforcement. Decorations in both out the ying-yang. He recomended both books, and three others:Street survival, Tactical edge, and tactics for criminal patrol, all by Charles Remsberg. I must say that I totally agree with the article. I have a black belt in kenpo karate, and trained in several others. I always have a good quality lockblade knife with me. But I feel I would be remiss if I wasn't carrying off duty. I try to be prepared for anything, but if I leave the house without a firearm, then I'm not fully prepared. It dosn't solve everything, but at least it gives me options that going without it would be severly limited. Excellent article. They should read it during a national address.
                        "Well I'm here now, so deal with it."

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                        • #13
                          Makes a lot of sense, but I can't bring myself to carry off duty unless I know I'm going into one of the armpits of NJ. For day to day routine life, the gun is more of a burden than anything I can think of.

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                          • #14
                            Cleetus0219 - Please accept this as food for thought. What happens when the armpits of NJ come to meet you? Will you be prepared to deal with them wherever you are?

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                            • #15
                              Whether Grossman has comabt experience or not, you can't dismiss him. He has spent the whole of his adult life studying and training for just one moment. Warriers do that.

                              On being a sheep when leaving your home without your weapon? Oh my what a thought provocation that was. Even with a battle plan, unarmed, we're still sheep. Granted, smarter sheep, but sheep none the less. The true and absolute difference between the sheep and sheep dog is that the dog challenges the fight. The sheep don't. Without weapons (gun), we cannot challange the fight. Oh our training will kick in and we'll seek good cover, concelment and use sound tactics to withdraw safely. But, as I said, that just makes us smarter sheep.

                              Leaving home with or without your weapon is a choise we make each and everytime we leave our homes. Do I go a packin on the milk and bread run to the grocery store? Or when I need that nut and bolt form Home Depot? Naw, odds are pretty slim. But then again we have a police officer here in San Diego County that did the milk and bread run and ended up in an off-duty shooting. Another prime example of bad $hit happens to good people for no good reason. So which are you going to be? A smart sheep or the sheep dog?
                              Be alert...the world needs more lerts!

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