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The new mindset of police?

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  • The new mindset of police?

    Had an incident occur where a 911 caller wanted a suspicious person checked out, upon contact the person took off running. About 20 minutes later, the subject was in custody.

    At the end of our tour, the crew minus the paper car got together and couldn't justify the reason for the foot pursuit, speaking about how much of a waste of time it is when there were no charges on the person until he beat feet. Although I almost understand their questioning of the pursuit...I believe it was more of the unknowns of why he ran (Drugs or gun on his person, etc.). It's almost as if it was a little smack talking about the officer's decision to give chase, the supervisor's didn't question his tactics.

    Anyone else experience this in their agency? Kind of a bummer hearing this after being a more proactive guy myself. Everyone is more reactive on major incidents only and refrains from paperwork as much as possible. A 3-year, I still call myself a new guy, and this kind of shows what I may be dealing with in my near future. Kind of a bummer...

    Due to recent events, Ferguson Etc. I can understand the mindset due to cops being thrown to the wolves by the media etc.
    F.O.G. Holsters - The Last Holster You'll Ever Need

  • #2
    At the end of our tour, the crew minus the paper car got together and couldn't justify the reason for the foot pursuit, speaking about how much of a waste of time it is when there were no charges on the person until he beat feet. Although I almost understand their questioning of the pursuit...I believe it was more of the unknowns of why he ran (Drugs or gun on his person, etc.). It's almost as if it was a little smack talking about the officer's decision to give chase, the supervisor's didn't question his tactics.
    Case law firmly established that there is no crime is running down the street. There is also no crime in a police officer deciding to run down the same street. The seizure doesn't occur UNTIL the officer physically stops the person, or they respond to the verbal command to stop. Just GIVING the command is not a seizure, the person has to obey it. Until a seizure occurs you just have two people running down the same street... one probably yelling.

    However, if the seizure occurs... if the officer grabs the guy or tackles him, or he obeys the command to stop, you had BETTER have developed some reasonable suspicion at that point. In the case law, don't recall the case name, the suspect threw out a bag or something during the chase. That was enough for RS when they tackled him soon after, the running itself... and the failure to obey the order to stop... were not considered grounds for RS.

    So, if you want to chase people down the street for no reason go ahead... but you had best have found a reason when you catch them. At least here in Colorado, "running from the police" is not in itself a crime, nor is it necessarily considered evidence of criminal activity.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

    "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

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    • #3
      If I understand your thread correctly....to be frank, bigman, it sounds pretty typical to me. The proactive, go get'em attitude dies off with time unless driven by proactive supervisors. I believe you'll find that your supervisors show by example what the attitude of the shift or even department will be. I've seen entire agencies descend into nothing but endless crews that work to bitch instead of working and everyone is very unhappy.

      Hopefully your environment gets corrected and back to some modicum of better enthusiasm.
      Harry S. Truman, (1884-1972)
      “Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day.”

      Capt. E.J. Land USMC,
      “Just remember – life is hard. But it’s one hell of a lot harder if you’re stupid.

      George Washington, (1732-1799)
      "I hope I shall possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of all titles, the character of an honest man."

      Originally posted by Country_Jim
      ... Thus far, I am rooting for the zombies.

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      • #4
        Deleted...
        Last edited by Chomp; 09-27-2014, 11:53 PM.

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        • #5
          We've been weening our guys off of that type of behavior. Arresting a guy for "resisting arrest" doesn't fly with the prosecutor's office when that is the sole charge you come up with after running all over the neighborhood. You pretty much need a criminal charge or a citation in the bag before you start the foot chase or they are going to no charge it. You also need to worry about officer injury in a foot pursuit, especially at night. I clothes-lined myself in a night time foot pursuit and that put me on the ground and out of the chase. We've had officers injure their ankles and knees stepping in ruts, etc. and they are off the shift and off the schedule until they heal up. The natural instinct is to chase, but that does not mean it is a right option for the circumstances.

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          • #6
            I've been one of the injured during a foot chase of a burg suspect, so I know how it can be (2 surgeries in 3 years). I'm not necessarily looking for case law, although appreciated. My deal is that some guys want to put the miles on the car to keep the bosses off their back, and park for the rest of the night. Anyone that disrupts their peace, gets a earful at the end of the day.

            The reason my colleague gave chase is his deal and will have to justify it on paper. Just curious about the general behavior and to see if its the norm nowadays. Instead of helping or giving each other advice. Its a "too much noise" advisory. I may have picked a poor example.
            Last edited by bigman30685; 09-28-2014, 03:34 AM.
            F.O.G. Holsters - The Last Holster You'll Ever Need

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            • #7
              Whole lot of second guessing here, too. Unfortunately it seems like our job is now constantly scrutinized by supervisors, administration, the public, politicians. Everyone thinks they can do and handle it better.

              Lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit, eventually we'll operate under fire department rules and respond only when a call for service is made, and then we'll have a chain of command present to decide how it's handled.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Se7en View Post
                Whole lot of second guessing here, too. Unfortunately it seems like our job is now constantly scrutinized by supervisors, administration, the public, politicians. Everyone thinks they can do and handle it better.

                Lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit, eventually we'll operate under fire department rules and respond only when a call for service is made, and then we'll have a chain of command present to decide how it's handled.

                I see a similar future.


                I see your supervisor "riding along" on your shoulder via real-time wi-fi video/audio directing your actions at the scene
                Last edited by Iowa #1603; 09-28-2014, 01:51 PM.
                Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

                My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Se7en View Post
                  Lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit, eventually we'll operate under fire department rules and respond only when a call for service is made, and then we'll have a chain of command present to decide how it's handled.
                  Also, if the Incident Commander makes a mistake/bad call at a scene? Fired or (if he's lucky) demoted. Oh wait, that's how it is now.

                  Originally posted by Iowa #1603 View Post
                  I see your supervisor "riding along" on your shoulder via real-time wi-fi video/audio directing your actions at the scene
                  20-30 years from now, he'll fly above your head in a drone. I'll tell the rookies about the old days when we got to handle our own business and actually carried guns. If a turd ran from me? Sometimes I could chase him!
                  Last edited by Chomp; 09-28-2014, 01:57 PM.

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                  • #10
                    I am dealing with what you are. I am one of the newer guys at my department and also one of the most active. Recently the Capt has started posting statistics on the back wall each month. Since it has happened I have consistently led the department in arrests and most other proactive categories. Needless to say I have caught some flack. Some of it good natured while some of it has not been. I know that I am ruffling feathers because we recently went to a "points system" and it turns out that when you lead the department in arrests you lead in the points department also. Quite a few guys have said i need to slow down so I don't make everyone look bad.

                    Thankfully my Sgt and Lt have been very supportive and encourage what I do. Also have heard multiple positive things from other Lt's and admin.

                    If you are proactive it will get noticed by the people that matter and it will pay off when promotions come up.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by okgr2056 View Post
                      If you are proactive it will get noticed by the people that matter and it will pay off when promotions come up.
                      Right now. This moment. From now on, I can pinpoint down to the second the first time that I ever felt salty. Thank you for that, brother.

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                      • #12
                        It can be common down here as well. A lot of members and sergeants with 10+ years on like to keep things simple and don't like incidents that fall outside that spectrum. There are numerous examples of case law here stating that if a person is not under arrest he is entitled to run away from the police and refuse to speak to them.

                        There are plenty of workplaces where coming in and upsetting the status quo by getting more tickets/briefs/arrests than the established members leads to friction in the workplace. There is a lot of pressure to just be the 'grey man', get the job done to the point that management will leave you alone and then go home.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Langford PR View Post
                          If I understand your thread correctly....to be frank, bigman, it sounds pretty typical to me. The proactive, go get'em attitude dies off with time unless driven by proactive supervisors. I believe you'll find that your supervisors show by example what the attitude of the shift or even department will be. I've seen entire agencies descend into nothing but endless crews that work to bitch instead of working and everyone is very unhappy.

                          Hopefully your environment gets corrected and back to some modicum of better enthusiasm.
                          This is 100% true.
                          I make my living on Irish welfare.

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                          • #14
                            When I was on patrol it was generally frowned upon to broadcast a foot pursuit with out knowing what you had. It a very congested urban environment many cops get seriously hurt or killed responding to back up guys in a foot chase. Many veteran cops and supervisors didn't take kindly to flying thru NYC traffic at dangerous speeds and upon arrival asking the officer "whatcha got?" Hearing "uhh he ran" would not make you popular especially if you have to cut the guy loose. The Patrol Sergeant would probably have some undesirable non enforcement assignments for you for the next few days.

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                            • #15
                              I keep coming back to the "Suspicious Person" call. Depending on what details the caller gave, there may have been very strong RS for a detention. And if the guy ran, you have reason to chase. Without knowing the details though, it's really hard to say.

                              I certainly don't chase everyone who runs. I had one recently where the caller reported two intoxicated juveniles. They ran as soon as they saw me. The only info I had on them was they were possibly intoxicated. I didn't bother chasing. But if the call had been that they were looking into cars with flashlights and trying doorhandles, I probably would have chased if they matched the description.

                              But I guess your question was really about the criticism or second guessing after the fact. I think that's probably always been around. It's just like any other workplace. There's sometimes jealousy, and there's shift politics. People criticize each others' tactics (sometimes that's a good thing). The old guys usually have to reign in the young guys some too. I think that's all fine so long as the guy isn't getting written up for it.
                              Last edited by allen_gamble; 09-28-2014, 10:30 PM.

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