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  • Citizen gun training requirments

    I'm curious about other LE's opinion. In regard to deadly force In a hostile situation untrained people are going to think and react VS LE whom just react. While the untrained are thinking or possibly freeze, there is a high probability they will become a victim themselves. The difference is "think and react" VS react. Could you kill someone "umm....yes" VS "YES!" I have heard more than once, "why don't you just shoot him in the leg"
    I don't know if this is true, but I believe outside of the LE community more people are carrying guns that have not been properly trained than who have gone through extensive training including thugs carrying guns for violence. I would think there is a greater chance an officer, off duty or on, has a higher probability of using deadly force against someone who legally can carry, but doesn't know when, how or where they can use it. This is a situation that could possibly recklessly endanger by-standards.
    I support the 2nd amendment, don't get me wrong, but when it was written it was intended to be amended as society changes. When it was written I don't think they could have foreseen the amount of destruction that can be so easily achieved.
    What do you think of requirements for strict training including scenario based training. The same thing LE are required to go through. If i were not LE and wanted to get a permit in the state I live in my hunter safety course I took from a different state when I was 16 more than 10 years ago is enough to buy a permit.
    I also think most don't understand if two people are in a stand-off and they're holding a gun no matter legally or not they're going to be treated as hostile. The constitution does not protect someone from being arrested until they are proven to have taken legal actions.

  • #2
    We don't just react. We think and react. We just train more so that it's done in microseconds. The decision trees calculated quickly.
    Now go home and get your shine box!

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    • #3
      An old academy instructor told us..."if you have to think about shooting someone, don't do it." Your reaction must be instinctive self preservation. (or another).
      September 11, 2001 - All gave some, some gave all. Never forget -- Never forgive.......... RIP Brothers and Sisters.

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      • #4
        While the untrained are thinking or possibly freeze, there is a high probability they will become a victim themselves. The difference is "think and react" VS react. Could you kill someone "umm....yes" VS "YES!" I have heard more than once, "why don't you just shoot him in the leg"
        You're lumping all non-LE into the same group.

        No one who carries a gun is wondering why we don't shoot someone in the leg.

        ...and many private individuals who carry are better trained than the average peace officer. I was.

        "if you have to think about shooting someone, don't do it."
        Assessment is part of the decision loop.

        Further, what about hostage situations, barricaded suspect, etc, etc? Lots of thinking there.

        What do you think of requirements for strict training including scenario based training.
        A right which is regulated becomes a privilege. The right to vote is potentially far more devastating than the right to bear arms and requires no intelligence, training or education... as demonstrated by recent elections.

        Individuals are responsible for the consequences of their actions, for the consequences of the rights they exercise. Those rights should not be preempted, modified or mitigated by government intervention in advance. The role of government with regard to personal rights is to SECURE rights for the individual, and punish irresponsible use of rights when it occurs.... not restrict them proactively.

        Any other action by government is an over reach of their function.
        Last edited by tanksoldier; 08-03-2014, 09:04 PM.
        "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

        "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

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        • #5
          I have met and trained with many non-LEOs who are far more skilled with guns than I am. But I also personally know people (including close family) who carry concealed and probably have no business carrying a firearm because they don't train. Training is what builds the "think" vs "react" stuff or whatever you were talking about.

          On the whole though, most concealed carry people I run across are much more responsible and cooperative than the people who carry illegally. A lot of them have sort of a "same team" mentality with law enforcement. When someone hands me their CHL, and notifies me that they are carrying and asks me what I'd like them to do, it sends a pretty strong signal that this encounter will be relatively positive.

          I'm a little bit torn on the CHL requirements in Texas. The course/requirements are pretty pathetic. My father is a pretty terrible shot, and he passed the course easily. As a LEO, I'm required to qualify annually on a much more rigorous course of fire, and I undergo firearms instruction monthly. I kind of wish there were similar requirements for non-LE CHLs.

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          • #6
            I'm firmly against any training requirement or licensing requirement. Arizona, Alaska, and Vermont seem to be getting along just fine without one.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by tanksoldier View Post


              Assessment is part of the decision loop.

              Further, what about hostage situations, barricaded suspect, etc, etc? Lots of thinking there.

              Correct. Rookies, for the most part, won't be conducting hostage rescue. The statement was a talking point with a strong warning. That is all.
              September 11, 2001 - All gave some, some gave all. Never forget -- Never forgive.......... RIP Brothers and Sisters.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by wilaw View Post
                I support the 2nd amendment, don't get me wrong, but when it was written it was intended to be amended as society changes. When it was written I don't think they could have foreseen the amount of destruction that can be so easily achieved.
                Where does it say that it was intended to be amended over time? Using that logic, other amendements should be changed to reflect modern times as well. We all know how much desctruction can be done using the written word such as cyber bullying. Maybe we should restrict freedom of the press to people with certain educational backgrounds and who demonstrate a subject matter intelligence about what they're reporting on.
                "Respect is earned. Honesty is appreciated. Trust is gained. Loyalty is returned."

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                • #9
                  The vast majority of non-leos I meet in the course of my duties are not very well trained, which many would argue is not necessary for self-protection (not me, but others would argue that).

                  Many think they are well-trained, simply because of a familiarity with firearms or having been in the military, but I think many of us would agree that knowing something about use of force is just as - if not more - important than knowing how to shoot well. A lot of the folks I meet are well-intentioned, but seem to gloss over the ramifications of carrying a weapon and focus more on the weapon, itself. They embrace the capability that having a gun gives them and may try to hone that capability, but focus very little on the responsibility involved with carrying it. Just my experience. YMMV.

                  Still, they're exercising a right guaranteed by the Constitution. So if they follow the law, they're exercising their personal freedoms. I guess I just wish some of them took the potential consequences of exercising those freedoms a bit more seriously.

                  Some states require as little as a 10-hour course, which to me doesn't really cut it.
                  Last edited by GreenLine; 08-05-2014, 10:59 AM.
                  "Sir, does this mean that Ann Margaret's not coming?"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by allen_gamble View Post
                    I have met and trained with many non-LEOs who are far more skilled with guns than I am. But I also personally know people (including close family) who carry concealed and probably have no business carrying a firearm because they don't train. Training is what builds the "think" vs "react" stuff or whatever you were talking about.

                    On the whole though, most concealed carry people I run across are much more responsible and cooperative than the people who carry illegally. A lot of them have sort of a "same team" mentality with law enforcement. When someone hands me their CHL, and notifies me that they are carrying and asks me what I'd like them to do, it sends a pretty strong signal that this encounter will be relatively positive.

                    I'm a little bit torn on the CHL requirements in Texas. The course/requirements are pretty pathetic. My father is a pretty terrible shot, and he passed the course easily. As a LEO, I'm required to qualify annually on a much more rigorous course of fire, and I undergo firearms instruction monthly. I kind of wish there were similar requirements for non-LE CHLs.
                    Use to have to requalify/retake the class the first two recerts.... that went away this year
                    Why do we try so Hard for Little things, and so Little for Hard things?

                    "There is no happiness without tears; no life without death. Beware, I will give you cause to weep"

                    R.I.P Hand Sanitizer, you will be missed…

                    Remember, Gay, Straight, Black, White, or HIV+, on this forum you're "Blue" and that's what matters most.

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                    • #11
                      When I draw my firearm I am thinking as well as reacting. If I couldn't do the two simultaneously there would be a couple of people dead that didn't need to be. Would I have been legally justified in those two instances? Yes, however legally and morally are sometimes not the same.

                      As far a the Second Amendment being intended to be amended as society changes, I respectfully disagree. If you review the process to amend the U.S. Constitution, and keep in mind that it has only been amended twenty-seven times, I think you will find that our nation's founders made amending the Constitution nearly impossible for a reason.

                      Stay safe.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by So Fla Cop View Post
                        Correct. Rookies, for the most part, won't be conducting hostage rescue. .
                        What do you call it when you respond to a DV and he puts a gun to her head?

                        When you walk into the 7-11 and there's a robbery in progress, and the perp is holding the clerk at gunpoint?

                        Both are hostage situations anybody can face without warning.
                        "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                        "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GreenLine View Post

                          Still, they're exercising a right guaranteed by the Constitution. So if they follow the law, they're exercising their personal freedoms. I guess I just wish some of them took the potential consequences of exercising those freedoms a bit more seriously.

                          Some states require as little as a 10-hour course, which to me doesn't really cut it.
                          You put it better than I did. I'm tempted to compare it to people driving a car without ever learning how. However, driving a car is not a constitutionally protected right, so I guess the analogy is dead in the water there. We can wish all we want that people would take carrying a gun seriously and train, but some of them never will.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wilaw View Post
                            I'm curious about other LE's opinion. In regard to deadly force In a hostile situation untrained people ...
                            I must be old but my grandparents fought off Indians and banditos in their teens with no training. In the old days more people were familar with firearms and I distrust civilians with firearms but that is JMHO. (another story for another time)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ArmyVet View Post
                              Where does it say that it was intended to be amended over time?
                              Article 5.
                              I miss you, Dave.
                              http://www.odmp.org/officer/20669-of...david-s.-moore

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