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  • Fails FSTs but....

    well branching off my other thread..

    My chain of command has no answer but let them go.. how ever..

    You stop a person
    Glassy Blood shot eyes...
    Failed HGN
    Failed WAT
    Failed OLS
    missed letters on ABCs

    How ever...
    No odor of alcohol
    Able to speak properly and articulate ...


    What would you do...

    Im in Ohio if that helps...


    If you arrest for OVI
    they refuse to give blood.. what would you do?

  • #2
    I can only speak for PA, we have implied consent and such here.
    Going by your post, I can assume the reason for your stop was some sort of driving violation?
    If you have all the above, I would look for more, like drug bottles, other smells, and such. I have had several DUI arrests that there was no smell of alcohol, and returned positive results in drug screening. DUI is DUI wether it is alcohol or drugs, over the counter, perscription, or illegal.

    We also have provisions in our laws for people who exhibit the above, even if they don't smell like booze, we can request blood. If they refuse, it's a year license suspension automatically, without a finding of guilt.

    You simply need to articulate everything on your PC affidavit, or whatever they do in Ohio. Make sure everything you observed which led you to conclude this person was incapable of safe driving, and in need of further testing and/or observation. GROG
    As far as "rights" are concerned; I look at them this way... I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own...

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    • #3
      Arrest for OWI- Controlled substance and force the blood draw if they refuse. But that's here.
      Originally posted by kontemplerande
      Without Germany, you would not have won World War 2.

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      • #4
        What grog18b said, but from Michigan. Don't be afraid to dig deeper into the stop. Press the issue of drugs. Good luck. Also, if your chain of command isn't backing you, no need to stick your neck out. Cut them lose. Better yet, talk to your PA and see what advice they have. They may not even be interested in the case.
        Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

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        • #5
          yeah.. my chain of command is ****... they know less than i do i think...

          ive only been here a year and a half the first year of it was auxiliary..

          We didnt get hardly any training.. we never have training...

          i cant wait to move on... but there are no jobs opening up around here...

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          • #6
            ...Not sure why you're branching off from your previous thread...there was good info in their...but make the arrest based on your SFST's. Doesn't Ohio have an implied consent law or a refusal to submit law???? If so, use it!!!!
            I make my living on Irish welfare.

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            • #7
              well i know the refusal applies to blowing.. i dont know if it applies to blood.. im still trying to find out..

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              • #8
                I would arrest (fortunately we have several DRE's) if I felt it was drugs and not medical(stroke, diabetes ect.). I would then take for blood.
                Also, use your skills in interviewing to find out about medications, drugs, lack of sleep ect. sounds like there is more to the story that just got missed.
                In WI refusal applies to the test of your agency's choice also, if you are arresting for OMVWI - Drugs you need it to be blood to confirm so we can force, as I don't know of a breath test for drugs.

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                • #9
                  Also, not to be a jerk but, explain the directions very clearly and slowly and try to get them to relax a bit think about how your legs were shaking the first time you had to do SFST's ( I know mine were the first time I administered them solo) and add that to somebody who might be tired, extremely afraid of cops or whatever.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by im faster View Post
                    well branching off my other thread..

                    My chain of command has no answer but let them go.. how ever..

                    You stop a person
                    Glassy Blood shot eyes...
                    Failed HGN
                    Failed WAT
                    Failed OLS
                    missed letters on ABCs

                    How ever...
                    No odor of alcohol
                    Able to speak properly and articulate ...


                    What would you do...

                    Im in Ohio if that helps...


                    If you arrest for OVI
                    they refuse to give blood.. what would you do?
                    when you say "failed" the fst's i assume you mean: >4 indicators of impairment on hgn, >2 on ols, and >2 on wat - and also that the fst's were done according to standard (esp. your timing on hgn)?

                    if that's the case you certainly have pc for an arrest - nhtsa has validated clinical lab studies that demonstrate that when you have that combination there is a >90% probability that the person is above .10 BAC.

                    further, i don't know about ohio, but in illinois, driving under the influence is a separate offense from driving with a prohibited BAC (>.08). so i can make an arrest for driving under the influence (based on observed mental and physical impairment) which is a separate offense from driving w/ a prohibited BAC.

                    if the offender blows 0's on a pbt and you're certain of the observed impairment, i would make an arrest and take them to a hospital to get blood and urine.

                    if the offender refuses chemical testing (in illinois, if they refuse ANY of the requested tests, it's counted as a refusal w/ the associated DL consequences from the SOS), the probability of conviction is going to be based upon 1) how solid your pc for the stop is, 2) how well the audio/video conveys their impairment based on your entire interaction with them, 3) how well/competent you come across in court testimony (this gets back to whether you did the fst's according to nhtsa standard) - you will be on trial in a DUI hearing, and 4) the quality of the state's attorney/defense attorney.

                    in illinois we can't do forced draws unless there's an ambulatory injury involved...
                    Last edited by ilcitycop; 10-14-2010, 06:40 PM. Reason: added clarification on forced draws

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by im faster View Post
                      If you arrest for OVI
                      they refuse to give blood.. what would you do?
                      Here we strap them down and force blood. I can't imagine working somewhere we couldn't do that... everyone who catch on real fast and everyone would just refuse. The eyes tell everything.

                      I might call medic to make sure his blood sugar was ok... but with the HGN your situation is looking more like a controlled substance (or maybe combo) DUI. Does he have eye flutter, white coating on the tongue? I would eval for drugs, and I don't need a DRE here to arrest on that, anyone can.

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                      • #12
                        Here, I would be looking at arresting for DUI drugs.......no forced blood draw though, as those are only done on felony DUIs.....also, the hospital that we had to work with had a policy of refusing to do blood draws against the consent of the 'patient', sometimes even in the case of a felony DUI (traffic fatality and/or serious bodily injury).......they would order you out of their ER if you got pushy about it......

                        btw.....if you have been taught to do the 'standardized' SFSTs, do NOT use the alphabet test, as it is not part of those......we have lots of lawyers here in LA, and more than a few that only do DUI cases......they would rip you a new one on the stand for using it......
                        The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

                        "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

                        "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LA DEP View Post
                          Here, I would be looking at arresting for DUI drugs.......no forced blood draw though, as those are only done on felony DUIs.....also, the hospital that we had to work with had a policy of refusing to do blood draws against the consent of the 'patient', sometimes even in the case of a felony DUI (traffic fatality and/or serious bodily injury).......they would order you out of their ER if you got pushy about it......

                          btw.....if you have been taught to do the 'standardized' SFSTs, do NOT use the alphabet test, as it is not part of those......we have lots of lawyers here in LA, and more than a few that only do DUI cases......they would rip you a new one on the stand for using it......
                          as you mentioned, pre-exit interview questions (like reciting the alphabet) are not part of the SFST's, but they can be used to help demonstrate mental impairment (assuming, of course, that you establish that the person has a high school degree and knows the alphabet). Are your county attorney's telling you not to use pre-exit interview questions like reciting the alphabet, the finger point test, and counting? That is very surprising to me if true.

                          SFST's are not the only investigative tool we are limited to using in detecting DUI drivers. looking for the odor of an alcoholic beverage, bloodshot and watery eyes, slurred speech, observing the stopping sequence, and exit from the car - none of those are part of the SFST's either, but it contributes to the totality of evidence with regard to mental/physical impairment (as does the ability to recite the alphabet) and all of the preceding can (successfully) be used in a DUI hearing.

                          i'm not saying this to contradict your experience in california nor disputing that nhtsa's SFST's are the gold standard in detecting DUI motorists - it just seems very strange to me that other legitimate investigative tools would be summarily excluded.

                          i make a lot of DUI arrests and i almost always use the alphabet, numbers, and finger point test as part of my pre-exit interview sequence.

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                          • #14
                            Actually where I was told this was both DRE school and our 'DART' school back in the 90s.....they more or less said that we SHALL not ever use any other tests besides what we were taught in the class (NHTSA SFSTs).........you arent even taught to use any other tests while on FTO.....the DUI form we use doesnt have them listed either

                            I have also seen this brought up in court by one of the local DUI lawyers (the guy that charges 15K+ to take the case).........One of the arguements that he made was how did the arresting Deputy even know that the driver understood the alphabet in the first place?......Judge tossed that case very quickly after that and a couple of other arguments.....

                            Sometimes I think we end up doing things the way we do only because we are up to our ears in lawyers out here......all of them looking for work!
                            Last edited by LA DEP; 10-14-2010, 08:35 PM.
                            The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

                            "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

                            "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You never mentioned anything about their operation. There are plenty of medical and other impaired drivers out there that could fit into those categories you described. But without erratic operation or a crash, it would be a tough sell for your prosecutor.
                              Whitechapel - Hate Creation

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