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From SoCal to the South...a bit of a rant

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  • sawtac
    replied
    Code 7, I don't know all the reasons for the higher numbers in the south, but I do know a couple of them. 1. Fewer Officers/ lack of back up. I've seen interviews done with cop killers and most of them cited the fact that the officer they shot was alone as a major factor in their decision to kill the officer. 2. Older or poorer quality equipment. I've seen guys wearing 10 year old vests that felt lucky to have them. I've seen guys with no vests trying to do bake sales to raise money to buy them. 3. Lack of immediate medical care. There are places in my county where it would take an ambulance 2 hours to get to me if I got shot.

    Some departments out west and in the south have training issues. I'm fortunate to have a Sheriff that believes in training. I've been in 2 OIS's and thanks to my training, I'm still here.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazynova
    replied
    Originally posted by Code Seven

    Typing with two fingers isn't a poor way of typing, either...it's "different," but just as good as typing with all ten fingers.

    I take offense to that one. I happen to type with two fingers and can go 75 words a minute

    Leave a comment:


  • pulicords
    replied
    There's a lot of reasons why areas have high numbers of officer fatalities. While the "South" seems to have more than their fair share of them, "poor tactics" alone might not be a good explanation for those deaths. In many areas of the country (including the "South") communities don't have the financial resources to provide the same level of basic or advanced officer training that we (in CA) can frequently take for granted. The same departments don't provide as good safety equipment (radios, body armor, etc...) and aren't able to hire as many officers (per capita or per square mile) as even our "strained" agencies can.

    If a municipality or county only has one or two cars working at a time and they can't get timely assistance, the risk of injury or death increases considerably. If the officer(s) do suffer a life threatening injury, they might not have access to medical care beyond a basic emergency room. In Los Angeles (and other CA cities) "Level 1 Trauma Centers" greatly increase the chance for survival.

    While I firmly believe LEOs in our state face significant risks, we also have advantages (over other jurisdictions), that provide enhanced safety in our environment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Berlioz
    replied
    Originally posted by creolecop View Post
    There seems to be alot of reference to the number of LODD's seen in So CAl particularly the L.A. area. Myself and another Deputy were talking and it raised a good point. L.A. is NOT the most dangerous place to live in the U.S.. L.A. is not absorbed with the most violent criminals in the U.S. Granted L.A. gets alot of publicity with the numerous shows depicting many murderous and crazy situations but There are many other places not just down here with New Orleans (the infamous murder capital) but many other places particularly from the Midwest to the south. Somehow these areas have managed to keep their LODD's far below L.A. area. One could play devils advocate and say L.A. area training could stand to learn a thing or two from these area agencies referenced. They are operating in a more dangerous area with many more people ready to hand out death certificate justice yet they are not dying nearly at the rate of L.A. area LE......Maybe these other areas are just , Lucky, LOL!!........Just thoughts that make you say hmmmmm
    One could also say that the crime stats in LA are lower due to the advanced training and tactics employed by officers who patrol the area.

    NOPD has had 107 LODD deaths vs LAPD who has had 200. NO has in the neighborhood of 1500 officers servicing 300k (forgive if the numbers are off i didnt spend to much time searching) whereas LAPD has had 9500 +- servicing 4 million people. LAPD - 2 gunfire/aggrevated LODDs in the past ten years. NOPD - 5 gunfire/aggrevated LODDs. Just saying...

    There IS one major advantage that you have over us...and thats a football team..

    Leave a comment:


  • sawtac
    replied
    The FBI crime stats make it pretty clear that the south is the most dangerous region in the US. Of the 57 officers feloniously killed in 2007, 31 were killed in the south, and 9 in the west. South also had the most felony assaults on officers. Haven't seen the 2008 stats yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • kcso
    replied
    Every situation is different and should be evaluated on their own merits. I've worked on the west coast and in the south. There were boneheads and awesome cops in both regions, so, imo, it is not a regional thing. Regardless of who thinks who is right or wrong, just remember your training. If you don't have the adequate training to handle the surroundings in which you work, then get it. Always critique yourself and never stop training...never.

    We must all learn from our and others experiences, as well as the situations where our brothers and sisters have made the ultimate sacrifice. Always remember that the most important thing is for you, and your brother/sister officers, to go home safely every day.

    Today is Sunday, it's now time to root for whoever plays the Cowgirls, er, Cowboys, to beat them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kieth M.
    replied
    Originally posted by mdrdep View Post
    Don't mistake good luck with good tactics. NEVER, I MEAN NEVER reach into a running automobile.
    Yeah, I can attest to that one...had the bruises to prove it, too!

    Leave a comment:


  • creolecop
    replied
    There seems to be alot of reference to the number of LODD's seen in So CAl particularly the L.A. area. Myself and another Deputy were talking and it raised a good point. L.A. is NOT the most dangerous place to live in the U.S.. L.A. is not absorbed with the most violent criminals in the U.S. Granted L.A. gets alot of publicity with the numerous shows depicting many murderous and crazy situations but There are many other places not just down here with New Orleans (the infamous murder capital) but many other places particularly from the Midwest to the south. Somehow these areas have managed to keep their LODD's far below L.A. area. One could play devils advocate and say L.A. area training could stand to learn a thing or two from these area agencies referenced. They are operating in a more dangerous area with many more people ready to hand out death certificate justice yet they are not dying nearly at the rate of L.A. area LE......Maybe these other areas are just , Lucky, LOL!!........Just thoughts that make you say hmmmmm


    *****EDited in****

    BTW, I'm not for or against or even offering an opinion on the scenario mentioned in the post above this one from the OP. I wasn't there and can't comment on something I didn't see plus, it's only one side of the coin. My post is simply a devils advocate post. oh, yeah, GO SAINTS! & LSU!!

    FORGOT TO MENTION THE SAINTS ARE 6-0 WITH NO REAL COMPETITION LEFT ON THE HORIZON, (big cheese with a wink)
    Last edited by creolecop; 10-31-2009, 04:26 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MPD4Me
    replied
    Officer safety is Universal and I do understand the regional differneces…. The thugs can be just as ruthless here as they are in L.A., so why would you approach them any differently. Every bit of officer safety and tactics that I apply here, were learned on the streets of L.A., if you can make it in L.A., as a cop, you can make it anywhere… I really believe that. There have been plenty of instances where officers I work with have used such poor tactics it scared the Heck out of me…. I have many examples I could point to, but I will share a recent one.

    A call comes out of a person armed with a gun and acting out violently
    (5150), sitting in a driveway. Officer I’m with tells are assisting unit to meet on the scene (What?). I know, based on my experience and training in L.A., you always coordinate on a call like this. So I get back on the radio and coordinate with the other unit so we can role in together. Works out great, both units pull up like clockwork. While pulling up my partner keeps telling me to put my gun away (first mistake, you never tell another officer when or when not to pull out their gun, that is a personal decision, yet it has happened on more than one occasion and I find it highly offensive). I get out and at gun point yell to the suspect to put his hands up turn around go down on his knees and interlace his fingers behind his head. All the while my partner just starts walking up to him immediately reaches for his waist with both hands and starts to search him, never to think to grab the suspect’s hands or that more importantly he put himself in a crossfire situation.Furthermore he didn't appreciate the fact that I set the call up with the other unit after he told them to meet us at the scene. We debriefed afterwards and he didn’t agree with my approach to the situation. I know that my response was appropriate, my partner felt I was being too aggressive, you can’t police like that out here etc… I mention these circumstances as points to learn from and critique, these are by no means bad officers; they just do things differently….

    Leave a comment:


  • creolecop
    replied
    JP, give it up man. I know how you guys work and working adjacent to the murder capital of the US with yall's g***illion murders and violent crime for years, you guys have managed to keep your LODD to skeleton numbers compared to other countys around the US. It's obvious you guys like us are doing something right, plus we work where our depts give us freedom to improvise as we see best.

    Plus, the Saints are 6-0 anyways who cares, LOL!
    Last edited by creolecop; 10-31-2009, 04:27 PM. Reason: Saint's are 6-0 not 5-0..All these wins are hard to keep up with

    Leave a comment:


  • mdrdep
    replied
    Don't mistake good luck with good tactics. NEVER, I MEAN NEVER reach into a running automobile.

    Leave a comment:


  • DOAcop38
    replied
    Originally posted by JPSO Recruit View Post
    As I said before reread my post, I've made my point crystal clear. What works in California doesn't work everywhere else, period. You have developed those techniques for a reason, you needed those in order for your officer safety. I'm not compromising my safety, you're acting like I'm Wild Bill Hitchcock off to fire my weapon in the town square. Don't preach to us how to do things, as you have no idea what we face in our environment. My opinions won't change, neither will yours. You see things as bad tactics, things that don't work in California so you assume don't work everywhere else. That's fine pot, be sure to meet kettle on your way out.
    First of, what exactly do you face in your environment that we do not????( No one here from CA. has commented that officers in other parts of the country don't face druggies, gangbangers, Domestics, robberies,rapes,etc becuase that would be a down right stupid assertion) so how are crimes "magically different" where you work???

    Tenured "street fighters" like LA DEP ,CODE 7, and others have simply said that some of the accepted practices,particularly the notion that you have to pursue suspects as a lone officer, is simply asking for a potentially losing outcome. The original poster commented( as stated numerous times) that what he sees where he now works is simply poor tactics, and apparently its the ATTITUDE more than bad training(or lack of)

    you yourself admitted that you work a fairly large agency( 1,500). I doubt seriously "IF" there is some overwhelming need for you to go it alone all the time. I myself, patrol often without a partner in my 10 sq mile area, but the dense population makes it as dangerous in a smaller area as being in a larger area with lower population density!

    You can't tell me that ,patrolling a moderate sized city or area, you can't WAIT for back up.( you must carry a dozen sets of handcuffs, and drive a transport van if thats the case!)The avg CA. agency might be no more than 50-100 officers,and many of those depts utilize solo officer patrol units- YET they also are more than likely to look on their officers engaging in lone pursuits of multiple suspects, or one on one foot pursuits of armed suspects a DUMB and deadly.

    At one time the San diego ,Ca PD( a 2,000+/- dept tha patrolled a 370 sq mile city and a 1,300,000 + population, had the record for the worst officer safety in the state( lots of UOF,OIS, LODDs & injuries) alot of it was sending solo officers to patrol high crime areas. SDPD brought that down by using more two officer units, redirecting officers to back each other more rapidly,etc. In some case here in L.A. lower grade calls wait for a longer time, if higher priority calls ,and officer safety is more important.

    LADEP stated that the LASD pulled away from the solo officer ( sorry, Deputy" ) footpursuits- one of the reasons was the HIGHER incident of OIS ( officer involved shootings) and serious uses of force. Here in Ca. You engage in alot of that, and the result is UOF or OIS, somebody is going to pull your tail on it and want to "know" why an officer or deputy insists on putting himself or herself in a situation that would lead to this! Often this happens in court more so than within the Dept( ala Pitchess motions ).

    We have watched too many"live action" shows( "Cops" makes alot of down south and back east agencies LOOK BAD), as well as training videos of officers, State troopers, Deputies,etc NOT searching properly, not securing the suspect properly,not taking better positions of advantage when contacting combative or resistant individuals- but then we here guys saying "screw it, we deal with it and thats the way it is".

    Bottom line, it doesn't have to be like that.We also deal with management / and veteran officers that are resistant to change, but we push through- many times it comes with a price in blood to make that change. As horrible as it sounds, maybe YOU TOO should use the pain you and your partners have experienced to push change.


    and just so you know- if your agency, or someone in your area was using a tactic that was thought to be safer for the officer or deputy,and could minimize serious injury a suspect, it would sooner or later be copied and followed her in Ca.

    Leave a comment:


  • JPSO Recruit
    replied
    Originally posted by Code Seven
    I'll be frank with you...I do not like that "rationale" at all...not one bit. People use that same "rationale" to justify:

    - becoming a police officer
    - becoming an in infantryman
    - going on a special forces mission "behind enemy lines"
    - setting oneself on fire as a "trick"
    - doing other crazy stunts

    ...as if those things don't increase the chance of you dying.

    "Rationale" is in quotes because it is not a real rationale...it is an illogical -- and, pardon my French, very ignorant -- statement that makes no sense.

    "I want to be a police officer. I am a bit concerned, however, about how dangerous the job is. An officer was killed today on a traffic stop. Three other officers in my area were also killed in the line of duty in the past year."

    "Well, you can die walking out of your house, or get hit by a drunk driver on your way back from a restaurant. So go for it!"

    Makes no sense. Such a foolish statement. Sorry for my bluntness.
    To be honest with you, I could care less about what "rationale" you like. I've been extremely respectful to everyone with differing opinions, LA DEP has been very courteous in his posting's and explanations. He might not agree with it, but I respect him and the way he presented his opinions/policy reasoning. I would expect the same from you, but hell you can't always get what you want.

    This job is dangerous, there is no question about that. However dangerous it may be, we still have a job to do. I'm not too sure how many times I've reiterated this, but things are done differently in some places. You'll have those officers who believe that things not done their way is wrong, and those that understand there are different tactics done by differing regions. I see you are the former. Have a good day.

    Leave a comment:


  • JPSO Recruit
    replied
    Originally posted by Code Seven
    +1



    +1



    No. We are trying to minimize the risk.

    That is why we don't rush cars, regardless of how many officers we have on scene. The suspect can and will kill or at least seriously injure one or more of you.

    I'm also not sure why that "crowd rushing" example was used as justification for rushing a car at the same time "we often work alone or with one other person on the whole shift" is being thrown around.

    Another justification given for rushing a car was the "window of opportunity." As posted previously, the officer rushed the suspect's vehicle because the suspect was "having trouble with the gear shifter." Good thing the suspect wasn't fumbling around for his gun. Also a good thing that the suspect didn't get the gear into drive and take off with the officer hanging on to the door.

    I wonder if "window of opportunity" is also used to justify reaching into a car to take the keys out of the ignition. "I can end this pursuit before it begins simply by taking the keys out of the ignition!" Please tell me you don't do this (or reach into a car at all, for that matter).

    This isn't simply a regional difference in field practices. This is an example of BAD tactics. Couhing it in any other term would be an understatement and a true disservice to you. The same can be said for the other issues mentioned in the OP:
    As I said before reread my post, I've made my point crystal clear. What works in California doesn't work everywhere else, period. You have developed those techniques for a reason, you needed those in order for your officer safety. I'm not compromising my safety, you're acting like I'm Wild Bill Hitchcock off to fire my weapon in the town square. Don't preach to us how to do things, as you have no idea what we face in our environment. My opinions won't change, neither will yours. You see things as bad tactics, things that don't work in California so you assume don't work everywhere else. That's fine pot, be sure to meet kettle on your way out.

    I have in the past reached into vehicle to turn it off, of course with my non dominant hand, but yes it is a valid tactic for DWI's or other situations which I will not discuss in a public forum. I've chased people while calling for backup, which is sometimes 10 or 15 minutes away at times and I work for a 1500 member agency, so it all really depends on the situation at hand.

    Leave a comment:


  • mdrdep
    replied
    Different locals will dictate how we talk to others. The number of assisting units, air support, etc may change how we deal with things.

    But good tactics are just that and should never be compromised. No matter what you do you will never elimenate danger, the idea of good tactics is to minimize that danger. It's all a balancing act and that is enough of what we should be discussing here.

    Leave a comment:

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