From SoCal to the South...a bit of a rant

[LA DEP]

That's cool, and I respect your point of view, but a department's policy was made to protect the department. I'm sorry, not that I would intentionally violate policy, but my job is to protect the innocent. I don't know what I would do if that person who I was chasing held a person hostage and killed somebody. That isn't something that I want on my conscience. Be careful out there bro..

As some people have noted, I think geographic locations differ in training or just practiced policy. Here is a video that I came across while browsing the net. On the pursuit thing, it's a quick rush to give the element of surprise to the driver. If the driver thought about running, or pulling out a gun, he is clearly outnumbered and overwhelmed with guns pointed at center mass. Hope this makes sense!
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...1-97be2efc8350

Yup.....different areas train different ways......policy is also made due to civil litigation ect.....our foot pursuit policy is partially the way it is due to the high number of OIS incidents we have had after foot pursuits........

btw...good way to get killed rushing the car if the suspect decides to say the hell with it.......he WILL shoot at least one of you before you shoot him.....hope it is worth it......

I wont change your viewpoint, and you sure as hell wont change mine. My number one rule is that I go home at night in the same condition I started in.....number two rule is to see rule number one.....

[nuthead]

If I am by myself?....nope.....against policy......at the MOST, we would follow and try to keep them in sight, while waiting for the world to show up.....start setting up other units in containment spots ect.....

How often would you be by yourself? I think that my be one of the big differences. Quite often here, there are only two officers on patrol. The smart ones (IMHO) don't get into anything while the other one is engaged with something, unless extenuating circumstances arise. We can (and do sometimes) call the county for backup, but they're stretched thinner than we are. For me, I guess it would depend on the circumstances as to what I did in that situation.

[LA DEP]

How often would you be by yourself? I think that my be one of the big differences. Quite often here, there are only two officers on patrol. The smart ones (IMHO) don't get into anything while the other one is engaged with something, unless extenuating circumstances arise. We can (and do sometimes) call the county for backup, but they're stretched thinner than we are. For me, I guess it would depend on the circumstances as to what I did in that situation.

Very often.....the vast majority of our cars are one man....even in Compton....even at night........the big difference is that backup is usually pretty close (1-2 minutes out)......and you will get loads of backup if you really yell for help.....might take 15-20 minutes, but you will have the world there......

[creolecop]

nope.....against policy......

Thats fair enough as typically you all have 2 man units right? so being by yourself is rare (I'm assuming), well flip that around. So if we never pursued you would NEVER catch anyone and we might as well have a no chase policy.

I honestly do enjoy your posts, but man!!! how big is yall's policy manual. Every officer must need a semi to follow them carrying it, or if on computer a seperate computer to hold all the memory. Man, everything is against policy. Seriously my hats off to officers like you all and Wash state, oregon State etc...officers who work in such constrictive enviroments.

[JPSO Recruit]

Yup.....different areas train different ways......policy is also made due to civil litigation ect.....our foot pursuit policy is partially the way it is due to the high number of OIS incidents we have had after foot pursuits........

btw...good way to get killed rushing the car if the suspect decides to say the hell with it.......he WILL shoot at least one of you before you shoot him.....hope it is worth it......

I wont change your viewpoint, and you sure as hell wont change mine. My number one rule is that I go home at night in the same condition I started in.....number two rule is to see rule number one.....

Quick question LA DEP, has it always been like that with the policies over there or has it changed a lot since you've been on?

[LA DEP]

Quick question LA DEP, has it always been like that with the policies over there or has it changed a lot since you've been on?

vehicle pursuit policy has changed alot since I started.....the foot pursuit policy is around 5 or so years old......

The felony stop procedures have been the same since I started....and am told that they are the same since around the mid 70s......no rushing the car under any circs......to the point that ANY UOF at the conclusion of a pursuit is an automatic IA notification......

creolecop....we are mostly one man cars 24/7......and our policy manual is about 6 inches thick....if you printed out the entire manual with all the sub-manuals, it will file up a cardboard file box......

[big mak attack]

I almost wish there was a kinda of exchange policy with other departments to share ideas and traning methods. We have officers from other countries come here from time to time and ride with us but Ive never seen officers from other depts with in the US. We have snet 1 or 2 people to places like LA to work on gang stuff but thats kinda rare for us. If it was more common to flip flop officers around to help spread tactics and ideas around it would be great.

[DOAcop38]

Who is advocating bad tactics? Your right bad tactics are BS. You've never been by no fault of your own engaged with having to control multiple suspects or persons by yourself until backup arrived? If in that situation do you allow all to leave and say my backup is not here yet so you guys have a nice day, don't hurt me on your way out? You've never chased a suspect who was in a group, who ran all by himself with no evidence of him being armed?

**would you ever chase a suspect you knew to be armed? I would, have, and will. Thats my job, thats what I signed up knowing.

Yes- and it was bad -period! Maybe I don't work where you do, but from your prior post where you even admitted that your fellow officers would rather chance being overwhelmed than give up their take home cars to ride with a partner, you seem to think that taking a chance on getting hurt or killed,without needing or requesting the resources to prevent it, is somehow "normal" way to work.

The last foot pursuit I had was from a T/Stop ( "traffic stop") of a couple I knew had just purchased narcotics. I was patrolling alone in an area adjacent to LAX known to LAPD,LASD,neighboring Inglewood as "high crime", but my loner /"tombstone courage" attitude led me to "Believe" I could handle it. I took the passenger out, a skinny kid in his early '20s, and totally IGNORED "warning" signs about his behavior- it went downhill in less than 15 secs and on the ground I was punching away with this punk( he had a small handgun tucked in his pants and was going for it)- Same suspect managed to wriggle free fom me on the ground( by then we had been surrounded by the "locals" who were encircling me) and this led to a foot pursuit.

The suspect ran through several gated apts,and I lost him BEFORE back up could arrive.I still had possession of the suspects ID and wallet, and was able to id him and file a criminal complaint against him ,which turned into a warant. After filing the report,The area LAPD Gang unit contacted me, and informed me that the same susp was a known street gangmember, wanted as a "person of interest" in a attempt murder near Venice,Ca.

Because of my "do what you have to do" attitude over the T/Stop, I risked getting killed or initiating an OIS, over what was a low grade pop of suspects buying marijuana( which they probably would have gotten a ticket over). When I was surrounded by the "locals"( approx. 10-14 knuckleheads) I could have easily gotten STOMPED out ,or worse-all this ,when it only took my back up 5 to 7 mins to arrive. The ON duty Sgt actually filed a I.A. complaint against me because of my "Bad" tactics.

Things I SHOULD have done right?

1) Request back up as soon as I even "thought" I had a crime occur

2)follow the vehicle to a location where I could dictate the stop

3) await numerical superiority( if and when possible)

4) maintain control of situation through verbal commands / instructions
( use physical as last resort)

5) Tactically withdraw if necessary,regroup and assert control over the situation

Sorry, I hate it when officers always come up with "all of a sudden this or that happened"- B.S.! You patrol an area ,you KNOW what can happen,especially if you have time on the job and bother to familiarize yourself with that areas issues/ problems. True ,you can't always control the actions and behavior of a suspect, BUT you can control you response to them ,or how you choose to counteract their actions.

Far too many officers here, and even where you are, seem to think that you meet equal force and actions to that of your suspects. Caution, and a conservative approach to a problem ,is met with the attitude that its "not macho", or "Brave", or "how we do it".Look closely at the violent LODD over yrs past- The majority of the officers KNEW exactly what they were dealing with yet quite a few of them used ****poor tactics, and paid a severe price for it.

Sorry if you feel that its wrong to say that, but having had one of my best friends on this job murdered by a POOTBUTT, I would rather learn from the mistakes of those passed on, rather than shrug it off and keep doing the same stupid stuff and relying on " luck" ( an instructor in my LAPD academy, Sgt Mika, told us that "hopeful thoughts are for children and the simple- tactics,training and determination will see you through").

"Our job" is to keep the peace and protect the general public against crime- that doesn't mean throwing our own personal safety away unnecessarily. That has been the point to what I've ben posting. If you have alternatives to "going it alone", or foregoing safer ways to enforce them law, do so every chance you can.........

[DOAcop38]

If I am by myself?....nope.....against policy......at the MOST, we would follow and try to keep them in sight, while waiting for the world to show up.....start setting up other units in containment spots ect.....

Some folks here aren't getting it- its that "I'm a cop" mindset, and thats what gets guys /girls killed. The worst thing I heard of was a young N.O PD officer who was killed by a felon who simply overpowered here.Has this happened here? "yes", but we don't simply ignore it,nor continue with the attitude that its "part of the job". Turns out that a co- worker of mine is from there and went to school with her.

In L.A. county, and in So.Cal ,there are alot of agencies that use solo officer patrols. "Discretion is always the better part of valor" when you are alone, and I do think that- from cross training with quite a few So.Cal, and recently ( No.cal) agencies, the Western states,- and CA. in general- uses better officer safety tactics ! Too many CA. officers/deputies/Agents have ended up in dire circumstance for not using better tactics.

[JPSO Recruit]

Yes- and it was bad -period! Maybe I don't work where you do, but from your prior post where you even admitted that your fellow officers would rather chance being overwhelmed than give up their take home cars to ride with a partner, you seem to think that taking a chance on getting hurt or killed,without needing or requesting the resources to prevent it, is somehow "normal" way to work.

The last foot pursuit I had was from a T/Stop ( "traffic stop") of a couple I knew had just purchased narcotics. I was patrolling alone in an area adjacent to LAX known to LAPD,LASD,neighboring Inglewood as "high crime", but my loner /"tombstone courage" attitude led me to "Believe" I could handle it. I took the passenger out, a skinny kid in his early '20s, and totally IGNORED "warning" signs about his behavior- it went downhill in less than 15 secs and on the ground I was punching away with this punk( he had a small handgun tucked in his pants and was going for it)- Same suspect managed to wriggle free fom me on the ground( by then we had been surrounded by the "locals" who were encircling me) and this led to a foot pursuit.

The suspect ran through several gated apts,and I lost him BEFORE back up could arrive.I still had possession of the suspects ID and wallet, and was able to id him and file a criminal complaint against him ,which turned into a warant. After filing the report,The area LAPD Gang unit contacted me, and informed me that the same susp was a known street gangmember, wanted as a "person of interest" in a attempt murder near Venice,Ca.

Because of my "do what you have to do" attitude over the T/Stop, I risked getting killed or initiating an OIS, over what was a low grade pop of suspects buying marijuana( which they probably would have gotten a ticket over). When I was surrounded by the "locals"( approx. 10-14 knuckleheads) I could have easily gotten STOMPED out ,or worse-all this ,when it only took my back up 5 to 7 mins to arrive. The ON duty Sgt actually filed a I.A. complaint against me because of my "Bad" tactics.

Things I SHOULD have done right?

1) Request back up as soon as I even "thought" I had a crime occur

2)follow the vehicle to a location where I could dictate the stop

3) await numerical superiority( if and when possible)

4) maintain control of situation through verbal commands / instructions
( use physical as last resort)

5) Tactically withdraw if necessary,regroup and assert control over the situation

Sorry, I hate it when officers always come up with "all of a sudden this or that happened"- B.S.! You patrol an area ,you KNOW what can happen,especially if you have time on the job and bother to familiarize yourself with that areas issues/ problems. True ,you can't always control the actions and behavior of a suspect, BUT you can control you response to them ,or how you choose to counteract their actions.

Far too many officers here, and even where you are, seem to think that you meet equal force and actions to that of your suspects. Caution, and a conservative approach to a problem ,is met with the attitude that its "not macho", or "Brave", or "how we do it".Look closely at the violent LODD over yrs past- The majority of the officers KNEW exactly what they were dealing with yet quite a few of them used ****poor tactics, and paid a severe price for it.

Sorry if you feel that its wrong to say that, but having had one of my best friends on this job murdered by a POOTBUTT, I would rather learn from the mistakes of those passed on, rather than shrug it off and keep doing the same stupid stuff and relying on " luck" ( an instructor in my LAPD academy, Sgt Mika, told us that "hopeful thoughts are for children and the simple- tactics,training and determination will see you through").

"Our job" is to keep the peace and protect the general public against crime- that doesn't mean throwing our own personal safety away unnecessarily. That has been the point to what I've ben posting. If you have alternatives to "going it alone", or foregoing safer ways to enforce them law, do so every chance you can.........

You can get killed walking out the door to your car, you could die in a car accident, or you could be ambushed on the way to roll call. You're trying to totally eliminate any danger in LE, which isn't going to happen. If I saw multiple suspects run from me, and did nothing then I would be in some deep *****. I can just see it now, "Hey sarge, I rolled up on them and they ran that way" "And you did what beside call it in? Nothing? Suspension, or possible termination for cowardice"

We take on inherent risk when we signed up for this job. Now, I'm not talking about stupid tactics like standing in front of door, improperly approaching a vehicle, or clearing a house wrong. You seem to be in the crowd called "sit and wait for backup". In some situations out here that is not a plausible option. As I said before, different areas have different tactics. Please read my previous post, I've explained this multiple times already.

[LA DEP]

You can get killed walking out the door to your car, you could die in a car accident, or you could be ambushed on the way to roll call. You're trying to totally eliminate any danger in LE, which isn't going to happen. If I saw multiple suspects run from me, and did nothing then I would be in some deep *****. I can just see it now, "Hey sarge, I rolled up on them and they ran that way" "And you did what beside call it in? Nothing? Suspension, or possible termination for cowardice"

We take on inherent risk when we signed up for this job. Now, I'm not talking about stupid tactics like standing in front of door, improperly approaching a vehicle, or clearing a house wrong. You seem to be in the crowd called "sit and wait for backup". In some situations out here that is not a plausible option. As I said before, different areas have different tactics. Please read my previous post, I've explained this multiple times already.

A large part of our policy is to reduce the risk, not eliminate it.....

In the situation you are describing, you would GET disicplined for chasing them......as the policy instructs you to set up a containment and wait for assisting units......

A big part of the difference here is NOT always in tactics...it is in the major difference in how our policy DEMANDS that we act......

Our major UOF incidents are investigated to the nth degree, never mind our OIS incidents.....while the incident will most often be 'cleared' as within policy, they will also look at other policy violations and/or officer safety violations.....if those are found, then you are looking at disicpline....which might be as simple as sending you back for training, but it can also result in days off without pay.

THAT is the major difference here.....

As you posted, you can get hurt doing anything....you can get hurt doing nothing too.....the incident that Creolcop posted where his fellow deputy was killed could have easily happened here as well.....from what I gathered from it, the suspect doubled back on him......that can happen no matter if you are by yourself and waiting for the world, or if you are by yourself and waiting for the one other unit you have within 100 miles.

What I, and other CA guys are trying to say is to minimize your risk....sometimes, you are NOT going to catch the bad guy....it happens....nothing you do will change that......

[mdrdep]

Different locals will dictate how we talk to others. The number of assisting units, air support, etc may change how we deal with things.

But good tactics are just that and should never be compromised. No matter what you do you will never elimenate danger, the idea of good tactics is to minimize that danger. It's all a balancing act and that is enough of what we should be discussing here.

[JPSO Recruit]

+1



+1



No. We are trying to minimize the risk.

That is why we don't rush cars, regardless of how many officers we have on scene. The suspect can and will kill or at least seriously injure one or more of you.

I'm also not sure why that "crowd rushing" example was used as justification for rushing a car at the same time "we often work alone or with one other person on the whole shift" is being thrown around.

Another justification given for rushing a car was the "window of opportunity." As posted previously, the officer rushed the suspect's vehicle because the suspect was "having trouble with the gear shifter." Good thing the suspect wasn't fumbling around for his gun. Also a good thing that the suspect didn't get the gear into drive and take off with the officer hanging on to the door.

I wonder if "window of opportunity" is also used to justify reaching into a car to take the keys out of the ignition. "I can end this pursuit before it begins simply by taking the keys out of the ignition!" Please tell me you don't do this (or reach into a car at all, for that matter).

This isn't simply a regional difference in field practices. This is an example of BAD tactics. Couhing it in any other term would be an understatement and a true disservice to you. The same can be said for the other issues mentioned in the OP:

As I said before reread my post, I've made my point crystal clear. What works in California doesn't work everywhere else, period. You have developed those techniques for a reason, you needed those in order for your officer safety. I'm not compromising my safety, you're acting like I'm Wild Bill Hitchcock off to fire my weapon in the town square. Don't preach to us how to do things, as you have no idea what we face in our environment. My opinions won't change, neither will yours. You see things as bad tactics, things that don't work in California so you assume don't work everywhere else. That's fine pot, be sure to meet kettle on your way out.

I have in the past reached into vehicle to turn it off, of course with my non dominant hand, but yes it is a valid tactic for DWI's or other situations which I will not discuss in a public forum. I've chased people while calling for backup, which is sometimes 10 or 15 minutes away at times and I work for a 1500 member agency, so it all really depends on the situation at hand.

[JPSO Recruit]

I'll be frank with you...I do not like that "rationale" at all...not one bit. People use that same "rationale" to justify:

- becoming a police officer
- becoming an in infantryman
- going on a special forces mission "behind enemy lines"
- setting oneself on fire as a "trick"
- doing other crazy stunts

...as if those things don't increase the chance of you dying.

"Rationale" is in quotes because it is not a real rationale...it is an illogical -- and, pardon my French, very ignorant -- statement that makes no sense.

"I want to be a police officer. I am a bit concerned, however, about how dangerous the job is. An officer was killed today on a traffic stop. Three other officers in my area were also killed in the line of duty in the past year."

"Well, you can die walking out of your house, or get hit by a drunk driver on your way back from a restaurant. So go for it!"

Makes no sense. Such a foolish statement. Sorry for my bluntness.

To be honest with you, I could care less about what "rationale" you like. I've been extremely respectful to everyone with differing opinions, LA DEP has been very courteous in his posting's and explanations. He might not agree with it, but I respect him and the way he presented his opinions/policy reasoning. I would expect the same from you, but hell you can't always get what you want.

This job is dangerous, there is no question about that. However dangerous it may be, we still have a job to do. I'm not too sure how many times I've reiterated this, but things are done differently in some places. You'll have those officers who believe that things not done their way is wrong, and those that understand there are different tactics done by differing regions. I see you are the former. Have a good day.

[DOAcop38]

As I said before reread my post, I've made my point crystal clear. What works in California doesn't work everywhere else, period. You have developed those techniques for a reason, you needed those in order for your officer safety. I'm not compromising my safety, you're acting like I'm Wild Bill Hitchcock off to fire my weapon in the town square. Don't preach to us how to do things, as you have no idea what we face in our environment. My opinions won't change, neither will yours. You see things as bad tactics, things that don't work in California so you assume don't work everywhere else. That's fine pot, be sure to meet kettle on your way out.

First of, what exactly do you face in your environment that we do not????( No one here from CA. has commented that officers in other parts of the country don't face druggies, gangbangers, Domestics, robberies,rapes,etc becuase that would be a down right stupid assertion) so how are crimes "magically different" where you work???

Tenured "street fighters" like LA DEP ,CODE 7, and others have simply said that some of the accepted practices,particularly the notion that you have to pursue suspects as a lone officer, is simply asking for a potentially losing outcome. The original poster commented( as stated numerous times) that what he sees where he now works is simply poor tactics, and apparently its the ATTITUDE more than bad training(or lack of)

you yourself admitted that you work a fairly large agency( 1,500). I doubt seriously "IF" there is some overwhelming need for you to go it alone all the time. I myself, patrol often without a partner in my 10 sq mile area, but the dense population makes it as dangerous in a smaller area as being in a larger area with lower population density!

You can't tell me that ,patrolling a moderate sized city or area, you can't WAIT for back up.( you must carry a dozen sets of handcuffs, and drive a transport van if thats the case!)The avg CA. agency might be no more than 50-100 officers,and many of those depts utilize solo officer patrol units- YET they also are more than likely to look on their officers engaging in lone pursuits of multiple suspects, or one on one foot pursuits of armed suspects a DUMB and deadly.

At one time the San diego ,Ca PD( a 2,000+/- dept tha patrolled a 370 sq mile city and a 1,300,000 + population, had the record for the worst officer safety in the state( lots of UOF,OIS, LODDs & injuries) alot of it was sending solo officers to patrol high crime areas. SDPD brought that down by using more two officer units, redirecting officers to back each other more rapidly,etc. In some case here in L.A. lower grade calls wait for a longer time, if higher priority calls ,and officer safety is more important.

LADEP stated that the LASD pulled away from the solo officer ( sorry, Deputy" ) footpursuits- one of the reasons was the HIGHER incident of OIS ( officer involved shootings) and serious uses of force. Here in Ca. You engage in alot of that, and the result is UOF or OIS, somebody is going to pull your tail on it and want to "know" why an officer or deputy insists on putting himself or herself in a situation that would lead to this! Often this happens in court more so than within the Dept( ala Pitchess motions ).

We have watched too many"live action" shows( "Cops" makes alot of down south and back east agencies LOOK BAD), as well as training videos of officers, State troopers, Deputies,etc NOT searching properly, not securing the suspect properly,not taking better positions of advantage when contacting combative or resistant individuals- but then we here guys saying "screw it, we deal with it and thats the way it is".

Bottom line, it doesn't have to be like that.We also deal with management / and veteran officers that are resistant to change, but we push through- many times it comes with a price in blood to make that change. As horrible as it sounds, maybe YOU TOO should use the pain you and your partners have experienced to push change.


and just so you know- if your agency, or someone in your area was using a tactic that was thought to be safer for the officer or deputy,and could minimize serious injury a suspect, it would sooner or later be copied and followed her in Ca.