From SoCal to the South...a bit of a rant

[creolecop]

Kieth M,

You have to be the wisest man on OdotCom. I enjoy listening to everything you have to say. You see things from every point of view and you respect others points of view which grabs peoples attention. I can only imagine working with you must be 8 or 12 hrs full of shock and awe when it comes to how you handle situations. In the words of TOP GUN, "You can be my wing man anytime!".

Your post was very insightful and I for one sincerely appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to post.

BTW, thanks for your condolences about our fallen brother. This was only roughly a year ago. Out of 1200 sq. miles of parish go figure that he would be killed in the yard behind my house and the murder weapon would be found next to a tree stump in my backyard. I think about that every time I go home just about. Sometimes going home or leaving for work I drive by the driveway that he was killed in on the street behind me. I made a traffic stop on that street the other night and had the hibi jibies on that stop with 2 known drug offenders by myself at 0300. Our fallen brother was definately in my mind. I think I did everything but write him his ticket at gunpoint, LOL!

[Kieth M.]

Creolecop, thank you for the kind words. I hope I always live up to them.

Regarding your friend, man, that's waaaaaay too close. I'm doubly sorry for your tragic experience.

It begets another story. One night, (Chinese-American LAPD Officers) Art Soo Hoo and William Wong were killed in a DUI H&R traffic accident in Chinatown, a block from Art's parent's dry cleaning store. Before the poilce and FD units arrived, Art's uncle (I believe it was) walked into the street, looked into the police car and saw Art behind the wheel. He opened the door, Art fell into his arms. He held him until relieved by the FD.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/12553-police-officer-arthur-ken-soo-hoo

[DOAcop38]

Tactics?? We don't NEED no stinking tactics!!!




No seriously, this has been discussed on here multiple times. I personally think it goes back to the south just being a macho type of region. This is home of the cowboys, roughnecks, and southern men who operate on our terms and that will be that. After all the south is the only region in the US to say sure we'll take big brother to war (I'm creole far from a confederate before someone goes there). I think that machoism spills over to, you see the suspect, "Get that sumbytch). I tend to think L.A. or southern california is NOT the U.S. hub for cop killers. Unless there is something drank in the water and passed on to offspring they are everywhere, but luckily somehow even though we have our casualties we somehow stay on top. So if it works it works. I also think a bigger factor is that in the south, southern people are born and raised with a greater respect and/or fear (however it needs to fit) for LE in the south. Wasn't all that long ago when a cop in the south dished out justice that never made it's way to a court room. Ugly or not that is just a reality. People down here may yap their gums and occassionally try us, but on a whole people I think have more respect for LE than you find in Cali which is why you encounter more issues of criminal on police violence. JM calcaulation of the situation. I think you guys are good at what yall do over there and I think we do what works for us here. BTW, as an old saying goes it's only wrong if you don't make it home that night.

People actually FEAR the police too here!( sad sometimes, but GOOD when you have to get your point across) I was driving back with a partner from a transport of a mentally ill individual and we "noticed" that all lanes of traffic were nearly 4 car lengths behind us! One BOLD yuppy in a lexus sped past us, but when we closed the distance, he looked at our vehicle markings( obvious NOT the CHP) ,but still dropped back in with "the pack".

Sadder still is the FACT that California has the LARGEST population of Felons and Gangmembers in the nation.It has been the hard learned lessons( other than Texas, Ca has the largest LODDs in the nation),coupled with mavericks that pushed for change here that lead to BETTER police tactics. guys here don't get "lucky"- no place for it, and even the DUMBEST Crip or crackhead "studies" police actions in the field and can size you up fairly quickly( had a UOF once with a poot butt rollin' 20s gangmember on a T/Stop, and he proudly proclaimed that he were WEAK for not hitting him harder compared to what a South West div LAPD gang unit would've done !!)

If any state or PD can do it ,better WE all need to look at it, and study it.The streets don't suffer fools, and even if you work a tawny suburb PD or the Hood, or a posh campus PD, sooner or later an A-hole will challenge you...

[Goautl]

People actually FEAR the police too here!( sad sometimes, but GOOD when you have to get your point across) I was driving back with a partner from a transport of a mentally ill individual and we "noticed" that all lanes of traffic were nearly 4 car lengths behind us! One BOLD yuppy in a lexus sped past us, but when we closed the distance, he looked at our vehicle markings( obvious NOT the CHP) ,but still dropped back in with "the pack".

Sadder still is the FACT that California has the LARGEST population of Felons and Gangmembers in the nation.It has been the hard learned lessons( other than Texas, Ca has the largest LODDs in the nation),coupled with mavericks that pushed for change here that lead to BETTER police tactics. guys here don't get "lucky"- no place for it, and even the DUMBEST Crip or crackhead "studies" police actions in the field and can size you up fairly quickly( had a UOF once with a poot butt rollin' 20s gangmember on a T/Stop, and he proudly proclaimed that he were WEAK for not hitting him harder compared to what a South West div LAPD gang unit would've done !!)

If any state or PD can do it ,better WE all need to look at it, and study it.The streets don't suffer fools, and even if you work a tawny suburb PD or the Hood, or a posh campus PD, sooner or later an A-hole will challenge you...

By far the best statement made in this thread!!!!!!! Does not matter where you work, one day the crap is going to hit the fan, and you had better be ready for it.

[Five-0fromSoCal]

While I know TV and the program COPS is not true reality, I always had to wonder, being from the south and all, why LAPD and LASO pointed guns at someone on virutally every traffic stop?

Ran red light? Guns come out? Possible drunk driver? Guns out, high risk stop. Never seen so much gun pointing that wound up with a ticket and release in all my life.

Yep they looked safe. Paranoid too but maybe it's just me.

Don't know about every stop. LASD/LAPD work some of the most gang infested areas in the country. We routinely stop gangsters who commonly carry guns. It is what it is. We don't worry about hurting some gangsters feelings because we let them know that we want to see their hands. Not paranoid. Just experience.

[11b101abn]

Err. wasn't that the use of any force beyond verbal commands? If I recall correctly.

I've not yet been berated for assertive tactics. But have been told to stop with "chicken ****" tickets. So I went from 1-2 tickets per 12hr night to none and understand slightly about what its like to be told no or stop and not be instructed on other methods or ways. So now I hesitate to even pull a car over much less write a ticket.

I was simplifying the explaination. Still the same circumstances.

In any case, he was brow beaten, by his CoC, which in turn caused him to not take the appropriate action. This is what killed him, as sure as they pulled the trigger them selves.

[SOI]

Sarge,

Not sure how old those EVOC training videos are, but at least on LASD you WILL buy days off for violating officer safety regs these days.....also, any UOF at the conclusion of a vehicle/foot pursuit is an automatic IA investigation......doesnt mean you will get spanked for it, but it is very heavily scrutinized

Good to know. And it should be that way. The videos were almost all '98 and newer because most of the cars were the current style of Crown Vic with the taller tail lights.

I don't know that any of the videos were LASD for sure, we were just told the "L.A. area". Most of the videos were helicopter shots so it's hard to tell one SD from another or one PD from another at altitude. We could only tell tan over dark and dark blue and they all had black and white cars, so who knows. CHP were the only easily identifiable ones. But we saw videos of CHP along with some SD and PDs.

Again, to be fair, there were plenty of flawless videos from California. It just happened to be the the "What NOT to do" section was predominantly Cali also.

It happens here a lot too. There is a PD not too far from me that is know for the "blue swarm" and the "Chris Rock Method of Arrest, Search, and Seizure" (if the police have to come get you, they're bringing an ***-whoopin' with 'em).

Crazy stuff.

[nuthead]

First, my respects to our fallen brother.

Second, what does your department teach with regard to tactics when a lone officer is faced with three fleeing burglary suspects at night? Surely, you must consider the possibility of one or more suspects double-backing on the officer, if the officer decides to pursue in that fashion. So how are you trained on how to handle this situation? Are you trained to "pursue, and if you're lucky, the suspect won't double-back and kill you"?

You also have not given me an example of why you should rush a vehicle following a pursuit. Because the suspect might take off again? Because the suspect might flee on foot? (Just so you know, that happens here in SoCal, too.) Why do you not treat the end-of-pursuit situation as a felony stop? Tell me the tactical reasons for rushing the vehicle.

Also, tell me the tactical reasons for searching suspects without controlling their hands.

Tell me the tactical reasons for blinding chasing a suspect around a corner.

Tell me the tactical reasons for not conducting a proper search of a suspect.

These are all issues that the OP pointed out.

Why would you jam your hands into a suspect's pocket haphazardly? Because you are still coming off of an adrenaline rush? Because you are "mad" at the suspect? Because you are in a rush and don't mind if you miss a gun that the suspect will subsequently use to shoot you in the back?

By the way, not once did I even infer that officers from the south are "lonely rednecks with their double hip 6 shooters who need to spit out their tobakka," or that the "West coast is God of LE." So please, with all due respect, spare us the theatrics.

If you will go back and read his posts, nowhere did he advocate using bad tactics; in fact, he condemns them. I think you're taking his posts too personal. It's a fact that policing in his district is different than in yours. Does that mean he uses bad tactics? No, it simply means what works in your district may not work in his. Some will work virtually everywhere. The point he's making is that Louisiana isn't California and that the "California" way isn't the only way - sometimes, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

[JPSO Recruit]

I'm a little late to this, but I feel this needs to be said. Creolecop is correct in his assertions.

I don't think the South is a bit less tactical than the West. However, I do believe we have different tactics than the West and other parts of the country. What works in California doesn't necessarily work down here. All those policies, procedures, and different mentality wouldn't last here. You all do what works for you, however don't think because other officers do things differently that it is wrong. I respect those officers who have to deal with all that red tape, policy manual bigger than a dictionary, and the worrying of liability at every corner. I'm not sure how you do it, but I thank you for your service. That is all.

[DOAcop38]

I'm a little late to this, but I feel this needs to be said. Creolecop is correct in his assertions.

I don't think the South is a bit less tactical than the West. However, I do believe we have different tactics than the West and other parts of the country. What works in California doesn't necessarily work down here. All those policies, procedures, and different mentality wouldn't last here. You all do what works for you, however don't think because other officers do things differently that it is wrong. I respect those officers who have to deal with all that red tape, policy manual bigger than a dictionary, and the worrying of liability at every corner. I'm not sure how you do it, but I thank you for your service. That is all.

B.S. calling bad tactics anywhere as "being different" is WRONG.Chasing armed suspects alone is WRONG. Passing cover and concealment is WRONG. Running up on a Felony ( high risk ) vehicle stop is WRONG.Trying to control multiple suspects ALONE is WRONG.NOT properly searching or controlling suspects is WRONG ( handcuffing doesn't mean "arrest"). There are no basic patrol techniques -if done properly- here on the westcoast that wouldn't work where you are.Guarantee you that if you followed the tactics taught you in your academy properly,they'd save your butts here as well......

[creolecop]

B.S. calling bad tactics anywhere as "being different" is WRONG.Chasing armed suspects alone is WRONG. Passing cover and concealment is WRONG. Running up on a Felony ( high risk ) vehicle stop is WRONG.Trying to control multiple suspects ALONE is WRONG.NOT properly searching or controlling suspects is WRONG ( handcuffing doesn't mean "arrest"). There are no basic patrol techniques -if done properly- here on the westcoast that wouldn't work where you are.Guarantee you that if you followed the tactics taught you in your academy properly,they'd save your butts here as well......

Who is advocating bad tactics? Your right bad tactics are BS. You've never been by no fault of your own engaged with having to control multiple suspects or persons by yourself until backup arrived? If in that situation do you allow all to leave and say my backup is not here yet so you guys have a nice day, don't hurt me on your way out? You've never chased a suspect who was in a group, who ran all by himself with no evidence of him being armed?

**would you ever chase a suspect you knew to be armed? I would, have, and will. Thats my job, thats what I signed up knowing.

[iamacop]

Who is advocating bad tactics? Your right bad tactics are BS. You've never been by no fault of your own engaged with having to control multiple suspects or persons by yourself until backup arrived? If in that situation do you allow all to leave and say my backup is not here yet so you guys have a nice day, don't hurt me on your way out? You've never chased a suspect who was in a group, who ran all by himself with no evidence of him being armed?

**would you ever chase a suspect you knew to be armed? I would, have, and will. Thats my job, thats what I signed up knowing.

+1 Not that I want to get seriously injured or die, but that's my job to stop that gunman before he runs into somebody's house and takes them as a hostage or seriously injure and/or kill them.

[JPSO Recruit]

B.S. calling bad tactics anywhere as "being different" is WRONG.Chasing armed suspects alone is WRONG. Passing cover and concealment is WRONG. Running up on a Felony ( high risk ) vehicle stop is WRONG.Trying to control multiple suspects ALONE is WRONG.NOT properly searching or controlling suspects is WRONG ( handcuffing doesn't mean "arrest"). There are no basic patrol techniques -if done properly- here on the westcoast that wouldn't work where you are.Guarantee you that if you followed the tactics taught you in your academy properly,they'd save your butts here as well......

You don't even understand what I'm talking about. As I said, it's two totally different worlds westcoast to the south. Did I say anywhere that I don't follow what I was taught in the academy? No, I'm using the very same technique's I was taught in the academy and on the street, but they are different styles than you use on the westcoast. Just because it works in California doesn't mean it works everywhere else, and that is something you will never understand.

[LA DEP]

Who is advocating bad tactics? Your right bad tactics are BS. You've never been by no fault of your own engaged with having to control multiple suspects or persons by yourself until backup arrived? If in that situation do you allow all to leave and say my backup is not here yet so you guys have a nice day, don't hurt me on your way out? You've never chased a suspect who was in a group, who ran all by himself with no evidence of him being armed?

**would you ever chase a suspect you knew to be armed? I would, have, and will. Thats my job, thats what I signed up knowing.

If I am by myself?....nope.....against policy......at the MOST, we would follow and try to keep them in sight, while waiting for the world to show up.....start setting up other units in containment spots ect.....

[iamacop]

That's cool, and I respect your point of view, but a department's policy was made to protect the department. I'm sorry, not that I would intentionally violate policy, but my job is to protect the innocent. I don't know what I would do if that person who I was chasing held a person hostage and killed somebody. That isn't something that I want on my conscience. Be careful out there bro..

As some people have noted, I think geographic locations differ in training or just practiced policy. Here is a video that I came across while browsing the net. On the pursuit thing, it's a quick rush to give the element of surprise to the driver. If the driver thought about running, or pulling out a gun, he is clearly outnumbered and overwhelmed with guns pointed at center mass. Hope this makes sense!

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=33328391&searchid=8c7402dd-bf8e-4b49-ab41-97be2efc8350