From SoCal to the South...a bit of a rant

[LA Copper]

Code 7 your ABSOLUTELY right. West coast is God of LE and all us lonley rednecks with our double hip 6 shooters need to spit out our tobakka and get bleach blonde crew cuts, take up surfing and learn the Correct Cali way of Policing. Oh, but wait there is one problem, I work in a 900 man agency and often times I'm still out there by myself having to take justice to the subject. Try waiting for back up and you let them get the upper hand. All that fancy stuff probably does work when you have 21 black and whites at the end of this pursuit and the suspect stays put in the car with his hands up. My county is huge and we have black guys who are patrolling ALONE 30min from the nearest backup in Klan land, (no shyt either straight up klan land, I mean signs up stating the next meeting place and time) and this Deputy has to work out there in pitch dark rural community by HIMSELF. So Tell me what LAPD tactics you have for that. We grab our darn balls and try to be as smart as our southern pea brains allow us to be. Out here your smarts will get you home more than fancy LAPD tactics. FACT!


Added in about our last Deputy who was killed. He happened upon a burglary of a business in progress. 3 Burglars ran from the building. He immediately called for backup. During the 17min it took for the first unit to arriva on scene he had gotten into a foot pursuit with 1. They all 3 split up. He didn't have a partner to even split up with if he wanted to. He continued to pursue one hoping to keep him insight or perimetered until back arrived. When he thought he had atleast 1 hunkered down he began to call a perimeter, only problem was he was NOT in So Cal with 50 million units down the street. While hunkered down on the side of a pickup truck parked in a driveway the suspects doubled back on him. shot him in the legs and as he fell to the ground one stood over him and pumped 3 more rounds into him killing him instantly. The first unit arrived to find him dead. Damn no chance for fancy tactics. BTW I am a fan of good training. My Dept stays on our butts with training. We train, train and train some more. We have ALOT of in service but what I'm saying is the best tactics comes down to whether or not the suspect intends to kill you. If taht is the case it comes down to your training, and LUCK! I know I'v been there and it was a combination of both that left him with the bullet wounds and not me.

Sound like your department needs to get rid of one-man cars 'cause they're obviously too dangerous in areas such as yours. If the city or department says it can't suffice with two-man units for dumb reasons such as, one-man units give the appearance of more units, then your union should get involved.

That would be your tactic for that issue. We used to have a lot of one-man cars also but realized after incidents such as you've referenced that it's too darn dangerous.

[creolecop]

Sound like your department needs to get rid of one-man cars 'cause they're obviously too dangerous in areas such as yours. If the city or department says it can't suffice with two-man units for dumb reasons such as, one-man units give the appearance of more units, then your union should get involved.

That would be your tactic for that issue. We used to have a lot of one-man cars also but realized after incidents such as you've referenced that it's too darn dangerous.

LA copper, I like what you have to say. For the record, I spent 12yrs in infantry. Marine Corps infantry, and Army 82nd Airborne Division infantry fought in Iraq and Astan, I know how important tactics are. I learned though that people think tactics is what keeps them alive. It's tactics and luck, take away one of those and you're down hill. I believe LAPD is good at what they do and know how to work in their enviroment. I also believe we have learned how to work in our enviroment. We used very different tactics in Astan than in Iraq. What looks wrong one place works in another.

The story mentioned are situations that happen all the time (without anyone getting shot though) with no backup. You're ineffecient unless you go for it and attempt to apprehend by yourself (I wouldn't go after all 3 but if they split up I'd go for one, one will tell on the others most of the time). What other options would you have. Sit there and say, yeah sergeant 3 guys dressed all in black with masks on ran taht way. People expect you to make an attempt to apprehend someone. There are times when I have no backup for a while and I see a traffic stop I want to make and I pass on it because I don't have to put myself in a bad position at that time. When you run up on a crime in progress you are expected to perform not sit back and play security guard (reporting). It's a helluva situation, but if you can't take it don't take the job this is what we signed up knowing. My only point is alot of tactics I see LAPD and other so cal agencies use are effective due to manpower. When you take out manpower your tactics have no choice but to change. Some don't get that part. If we had the luxury of having units out the wazoo on a pursuit I'm all for what I see LAPD execute on TV it makes sense. I'v been in more pursuits than I can remember, and I'v NEVER had one stop, put their hands up and wait for commands NEVER. I had 14 in 2008 alone and on course to break that number this year. 75% of our training (and we train alot) is focused on the officer operating by himself. The other 25% is multiple unit tactics. This reflects our reality.

We also don't have police unions in Louisiana. 2 man units as far as I can see will NEVER happen here. As rough as New Orleans is they are not always 2 man units. Some are, and others are only at night in some areas (last I knew may have changed). They are the only dept I know of in Louisiana that work in 2 man units and thats only sometimes. Not to mention you'll never get the rank and file to get behind that. Officers down here like their 1 man take home units. Dangerous of course but it is what it is. I am in no position to change anything. Well enough fun for me on here tonight, gotta help the kids with homework......surfs up LA copper

[LA DEP]

To be completely fair good tactics aren't a California regional thing. There are plenty of bad tactics everywhere, including in L.A. In the EVOC courses around here there is an entire "What NOT to do" section that is all videos from California. Video after video of officers swarming a car following a pursuit. There were also a lot of "What TO do" videos from California as well.

It seemed that if a suspect stopped voluntarily and gave up the officers in the video did nearly flawless high risk traffic stops and used great tactics. But in the videos where the suspect wrecked out it looked like a riot as blue and tan shirts swarmed the cars trying to yank people out through the window, all empty handed. One of these days that's going to happen and we're going to here a "pop" and see an officer or two drop dead.

A former California officer who was in training with me a couple of years back said the mentality was a split between "If they wrecked, they're stunned and can't fight back" and "If they wrecked and didn't stop on their own, they're gonna run on foot and we can cut them off before they get the chance". Neither method of thinking fly around here. Wreck or not, once a felon's vehicle stops, it's all high risk traffic stop tactics. If they don't respond and we have no choice, we will approach the vehicle, weapons drawn, being careful to avoid crossfire. If they run, they run. We'll evaluate the situation when it happens. But if they aren't stunned and are waiting in the driver's seat to shoot, we won't be right there in their window making a nice target.

As far as hands on tactics, I admit that California is a world above us and probably the model by which all others try to learn. I wish I could send all of our guys to California for a month to train with LAPD or LASD to learn proper pat searching. Way too often I see our guys let people put their hands in their pockets and not order them to remove them or pat them down. And when they do pat them down it's usually with bad form and without securing their hands first. I am hardly a tactical guru and due to the political environment around here I make as mistakes like anyone else in the name of furthering our bosses' political career, but if they need patted down, they're turning away from, placing their hands behind their back and interlacing their fingers before I go near them. If they need to come out of the car, they're getting patted down. I've tried teaching others that, and it hasn't really caught on.

Sarge,

Not sure how old those EVOC training videos are, but at least on LASD you WILL buy days off for violating officer safety regs these days.....also, any UOF at the conclusion of a vehicle/foot pursuit is an automatic IA investigation......doesnt mean you will get spanked for it, but it is very heavily scrutinized

[mdrdep]

Creole, losing a brother officer is always painful, but should not be in vain.

Did your dept. study the event. I don't mean the criminal investigation. I mean tactics/academy instructors, studying the tactics of the event. What went wrong for the deputy. What did the deputy do that went well. Break the event down step by step, analyze it, learn from it, and make an institutional commitment to not repeat this event.

[creolecop]

You also have not given me an example of why you should rush a vehicle following a pursuit. Because the suspect might take off again? Because the suspect might flee on foot? (Just so you know, that happens here in SoCal, too.) Why do you not treat the end-of-pursuit situation as a felony stop? Tell me the tactical reasons for rushing the vehicle.

I'm trying to help my son with homework, I left my computer on sitting on Ocom and I seen you posted all your questions. I'll have to get back to you, but I seen your above question that stuck right out. I NEVER SAID IT IS A GOOD THING. Have I yes. The situation dictated. When we came to a stop, suspect abruptly hit his brakes and I ended up right on his bumper. I had a clear view in a non tinted vehicle. Getting to the car as quick as possible because I saw a window of opportunity. The suspect had one hand on the wheel and one trying to get the car into whatever gear he was looking for, and I had 2 other deputies. Myself and another deputy quickly overtook the suspect while the other remained covering. It was a split second analysis of the situation. He was alone, I had clear visual of his hands. Was already basically at the car because of the way the pursuit ended. Normlly we execute a felony stop IF the suspect stops and remains in the car and especially if we have the vehicle occupied by more than one. If they suspect stops and complies we wait for backup if none on the pursuit with you and then make a felony stop. I'm not saying rushing a vehicle is ever good, but I say if the officers on the ground see a window of opportunity and they have a split second to react then if thats what they do I'm not going to say they are wrong. To me thats to broad of a brush and they are moments when the totality of everything the officer on the ground sees may make him react in a way that is not something trained.

[Dep D]

Interesting posts, but from what I'm reading it all comes down to is each individual posting has to work in THEIR own environment.

Each environment has common elements, but different in its complexities. You can have knowledge of all the best tactics, but if you don't have the manpower, or the resources to implement them, they are not effective.

If you take those same tactics and modify them to your environment, culture, and POLITICAL reality, and then utilize them in your modified form you have done the best you can.

I patrol in an area of suburbia of 120,000, literally turn a corner and have 35 acre ranchettes. Different tactics on open ground then between houses...

Believe it or not, a different thought process on guns of people who live "Right next door" to each other.

A geographical microcosm of what I'm trying to get at.

Basically the posters are saying "Don’t rush in", THINK, do what you have to because of your oath, responsibilities, and commitments, and hope the Good Lord, and luck will bring you home to your family tonight...

[Fugitive Hunter]

Creole cop what I meant by knowledge is tactical training which applies to everday scenarios, I have seen some of the ghettoes in Lousianna and people in Lousianna which stands right up there in the ghettoes I worked in NJ. Plus you guys have to deal with alligators, where are the tactics for that

[ryker]

Point taken, and true enough.

The Deputy you referred to earlier was K. Dinkheller, Laurens County S.O. He was berated repeatedly by his CoC for practicing tactics in an assertiive and proactive manner.

This, in turn, led to his hesitation to use lethal force and ultimately his murder.He wasnt a d-bag or anything like that by any stretch. Just to clarify.

Err. wasn't that the use of any force beyond verbal commands? If I recall correctly.

I've not yet been berated for assertive tactics. But have been told to stop with "chicken ****" tickets. So I went from 1-2 tickets per 12hr night to none and understand slightly about what its like to be told no or stop and not be instructed on other methods or ways. So now I hesitate to even pull a car over much less write a ticket.

[ryker]

There are times when I have no backup for a while and I see a traffic stop I want to make and I pass on it because I don't have to put myself in a bad position at that time. When you run up on a crime in progress you are expected to perform not sit back and play security guard (reporting). It's a helluva situation, but if you can't take it don't take the job this is what we signed up knowing. My only point is alot of tactics I see LAPD and other so cal agencies use are effective due to manpower. When you take out manpower your tactics have no choice but to change.

I try and wait for traffic stops on certain large roads with that extra lane of footage. In case I have to fight - I'd rather just fight the one guy and not a guy and the cars that speed by.

If possible and they are headed towards town I will follow and wait. Then I have the one or two other Deputies that would be a few minutes closer and some help with the PD.

I am with you on manpower. We have Four deputies per the whole county. One that almost has to stay in his zone. That leaves three other deputies. If a jailer or dispatcher calls in (due to moral ) that leaves two deputies. Toss in a auto wreck and now your down to one deputy for the whole south end of the county.

Dispatchers tend to get ill if you call in too many traffic stops. So its also slighty common to simply blue light a car and never call it in.

For some of us - we would rather have better training and tactics that we are allowed to use. Some of the more veteran guys probably have just given in/up or accept it.

I have no shoulder mic, no weapon mounted flashlight, no night sights on pistol or shotgun, no gun rack, I carry the old big MagLight, no ankle shackles, no riot gear, no taser, no tactical training beyond mandate (personal Judo, BJJ, and MMA), I wear a full dress uniform - shiny brass and the works. No laptops o GPS in cars, no cell phones.. No issued gloves. The other night we didn't even have evidence tape or evidence tags.

Point is - it is not all our fault.

[TX Heat]

While I know TV and the program COPS is not true reality, I always had to wonder, being from the south and all, why LAPD and LASO pointed guns at someone on virutally every traffic stop?

Ran red light? Guns come out? Possible drunk driver? Guns out, high risk stop. Never seen so much gun pointing that wound up with a ticket and release in all my life.

Yep they looked safe. Paranoid too but maybe it's just me.

[Kieth M.]

First, my respects to our fallen brother.

You also have not given me an example of why you should rush a vehicle following a pursuit. Because the suspect might take off again? Because the suspect might flee on foot? (Just so you know, that happens here in SoCal, too.) Why do you not treat the end-of-pursuit situation as a felony stop? Tell me the tactical reasons for rushing the vehicle.

CreoleCop -

#1 - My added regrets for the loss of your brother Deputy.

#2 - On that "rushing the car" theme. I feel compelled to share a story. One night Stacy Koon (yeah, that Stacy Koon) and I were chasing a car at 100 MPH, from Beverly and Fairfax in L.A. to the City of Burbank. LAPD cars could not catch up to us from a dead start. When we finally stopped in Burbank, Stacy and I started to prepare for a high-risk pullover. We had cops from two other agencies rushing the car, running right past us. We joined the rush, and Stacy yelled out, "Don't beat 'em, don't beat 'em!" Three burglars got booked without a lump, bump, or bruise. Thanks to Stacy Koon.

Creole...this thread was started by an officer who went from a large west coast agency to a moderately-sized southern one. He was ranting, as I have, about what he sees as the decline of officer safety from one place, to the next. Perhaps if he, or I, had signed on with your agency, we'd feel like we'd never left the left-coast, as far as officer safety goes. I'm among three LAPD members who have responded to share our opinions, nothing more, and with no malice toward any particular region. I sometimes fear for, yet at the same time, have immense respect for my current peers in these smaller towns and county agencies who have done so much, with so little, for so long. They would love to have the cast-off equipment LAPD sometimes takes for granted, or complains long and loud about.

I went from LAPD to a small town in a vast county in Colorado. Did LAPD cops do tactically stupid things? All the time. As you describe, however, they were lucky to have another officer at-scene who saved their bacon. By my own previous admission I chased a car on L.A. city streets at 100 MPH....not too smart, even at 0400 hours. I'm very lucky to be alive. Does LAPD put an emphasis on training and equipment in comparison to smaller agencies? Yes on training, maybe not so much on new, cool-wazoo equipment. Do we have the 'what not to do' examples set by some of our 200 KIA officers? You bet. We often learn officer-safety lessons the hard way and change policy or tactics as a result. Oddly enough, I've been around long enough to hear of an LAPD officer fired on probation because he would not rush without hesitation into a robbery alarm at a liquor store. Today, we expect an officer to survey the surrounding scene and do all they could without ever entering the store. Today, entering the store would be a last resort.

On another note, where I am now, I just watched a fellow officer display 'tombstone courage' at a call last weekend (D/V, male barricaded with a rifle and ammo, in the basement). There was no need for it. The incident could have been more safely handled. Which we all agreed upon after a debrief. We got very lucky it didn't spiral downward, way out of our control.

I've heard it thrown around, and I believe it after 32 years: At the start of our LE career, we survive on 5% skill and 95% luck. Toward the end, we better be surviving on 95% skill and 5% luck. So what makes the 'luck vs. skill' turnaround? IMO it's on-going, hands-on, in-service training. It's done at range qualifications, in briefings, roll-calls, it can happen when two cops exchange ideas at coffee, or even here on O.com. The challenges for effective change arise when LE management says, "Yeah, that sounds great but the mayor/council/whomever would never go for it...let's not bother them with this!" or "But we've never done it that way!" It's attitudes like that which will get our brothers and sisters killed, needlessly.

[pulicords]

While I know TV and the program COPS is not true reality, I always had to wonder, being from the south and all, why LAPD and LASO pointed guns at someone on virutally every traffic stop?

Ran red light? Guns come out? Possible drunk driver? Guns out, high risk stop. Never seen so much gun pointing that wound up with a ticket and release in all my life.

I confess to having watched that show for years, but have never seen what you describe as "routine." Neither LAPD nor LASD personnel point their weapons at persons stopped for minor traffic violations or simply because they're believed to be DUI. While "reported" stolen vehicles sometimes turn out to be "unreported" recoveries, pointing guns at motorists without justification will get LAPD officers or Los Angeles County deputies in just as much hot water here as it would in any other state.

[LA Copper]

I confess to having watched that show for years, but have never seen what you describe as "routine." Neither LAPD nor LASD personnel point their weapons at persons stopped for minor traffic violations or simply because they're believed to be DUI. While "reported" stolen vehicles sometimes turn out to be "unreported" recoveries, pointing guns at motorists without justification will get LAPD officers or Los Angeles County deputies in just as much hot water here as it would in any other state.

I agree. I've watched COPS and Life On The Beat and have not seen guns pulled out on a "basic" traffice stop.... unless, the officers are in the hood and they're stopping righteous gangsters who are known to commonly be armed. Between LASD and LAPD, we have quite a few OIS incidents every year with armed gang members. The hood can be a dangerous place.

[mdrdep]

I've pointed my gun at hundreds of thugs and a few people.

[pulicords]

I've pointed my gun at hundreds of thugs and a few people.

I doubt that's your typical approach for dealing with expired registration, speed and red light violations. Failing to use a "hands free" device while talking on a cellular telephone violations are certainly more dangerous offenses and frequently require the need for the exhibition of deadly weapons, if not their actual use.