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From SoCal to the South...a bit of a rant

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  • #31
    I experienced the same thing when I worked in NJ, guys rushing up on felony stops, using the wall pat down. I just think there have been guys who are just lucky and some guys who havent been so lucky. The West Coast has it going on with officer safety tactics, modern equipment and better knowledge of the job

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    • #32
      Regarding LAPD not getting patrol rifles until the B of A shootout, that had nothing to do with the vast majority of the department; that decision was made by the big boys up high, aka, the Police Commission and certain members of the city council.

      They didn't want high velocity weapons used in the city's urban environment because,

      A.) They look intimidating
      B.) If the round misses, they could kill innocent people downrange because the round goes a long ways.

      I know our tactics and Metro guys were trying to get us rifles for at least several years before the shootout.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by LA Copper View Post
        Regarding LAPD not getting patrol rifles until the B of A shootout, that had nothing to do with the vast majority of the department; that decision was made by the big boys up high, aka, the Police Commission and certain members of the city council.

        They didn't want high velocity weapons used in the city's urban environment because,

        A.) They look intimidating
        B.) If the round misses, they could kill innocent people downrange because the round goes a long ways.

        I know our tactics and Metro guys were trying to get us rifles for at least several years before the shootout.
        The decision was made at higher levels, but the request was on-going. LAPD Cops could not understand why next-door agencies, patrolling similar environments could have patrol rifles. Many times, over the years, some street coppers would think they had the idea first to research, collect data, and write the employee's report seeking to get patrol rifles. Inroads in the form of shotgun slugs were already present.

        Change at LAPD is like mating elephants, lots of pushing and shoving and a very long and detailed wait to see any result.

        In my time I watched us go from double-action-only altered .38's loaded with 158 gr. round nose lead bullets to hollow points, then 9mm semi-autos, then Kevlar helmets, then slug rounds for the shotgun - 1976 to 1997. Following the NoHo B of A shootout, .45's and AR-15's were approved almost overnight - all the predictions of police officers being at a disadvantage had come true...thankfully, nobody but the two turds had to die, although a few officers were pensioned off with injuries. The switch to Glocks with the option of mounted tac-lights took less time, 2005 - 2006.
        "You're never fully dressed without a smile."

        Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

        Three things I know for sure: (1) No bad deed goes unrewarded, (2) No good deed goes unpunished, and (3) It is entirely possible to push the most devoted, loyal and caring person beyond the point where they no longer give a 5h!t.

        Comment


        • #34
          I think on going training is our responsibility as Officers. It's our a** on the line, it's our responsibility to make sure we have up dated tactics and training. If you feel like you need more training in a certain area, get it. Even if you have to pay for it yourself. Bad tactics happen everywhere. I work in the south now, I did work at a very large department out west. I've seen mistakes made by vets, rooks, and believe it or not ...I've made some myself. On the whole, the officers I work with in Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas are every bit as tactically sound as the ones I worked with out west. I've seen plenty of mistakes made in both places, some of them very costly.

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          • #35
            Very good topic and posts all around. A lot of variation in tactics here as well. In my opinion, one has to take full responsibility for his or her tactics and mindset. If the training is not being offered, buy the books or videos, learn, and then hone the skills. Not as good as formal hands on training, but miles better than nothing. Other officer's bad tactics can and will place you in precarious positions, but you will make the streets safer for you. And maybe you'll rub off on somebody. The real key in more rural areas, is learning how to put the proper tactics in practice without garnering a ton of complaints. It can be done, you can be a gentleman and be tough as nails at the same time. One of the things I see here, is officers initially using pretty sound tactics, but at the first sign of good in someone, a smile, a polite greeting, they sometimes drop their guard and assume the person is not a threat. Whether you've been on three months or 30 years, the individual officer has to keep good tactics a personal goal.
            Last edited by Loose Cannon; 10-21-2009, 11:27 AM.
            Proudly generated over a hundred thousand dollars in attorney's fees and counting

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            • #36
              I worked 2 months with a portable radio that didn't work 1/2 of the time. How is that for southern tactics. Only reason my radio works now is because I made sure that every time I was on a call I would do a radio check and announce that my portable didn't work and then I didn't get a radio but was given another officers radio as he goes out for sick leave.

              That's 4 people per county - big county and a radio that doesn't work at all or very well. I have received maybe 10 minutes from my FTO's above basic mandate in tactics.
              Any views or opinions presented by this prenomen are solely those of a burlesque author and do not necessarily represent those of a LEA or caementum couturier.

              nom de plume

              This is the internet- take all information with a grain of salt. Such could be valid and true or could be typed just for playing devils advocate.

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              • #37
                Being underfunded doesn't preclude you from using good tactics. You make it work. I too work in a rural county where my nearest backup is up to 35 minutes away sometimes. I've had to go into some scary situations alone because I had no other choice. I used good tactics and made it work.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by dadyswat View Post
                  What has this really got to do with tactics? Whenever I approached a situation I always expected someone to be armed and if they weren't that was just icing one the cake. In Ohio if they have a CCW permit you'll know it whan you run the tag and that doesn't mean they're a threat or a non-threat just they have a CCW permit.
                  RELAX !!! The comment wasn't an ANTI-GUN slap!! Just was pointing out that in some areas of this country Officers routinely run into ARMED citizens with a "codition white" mindset toward the citizen (some seem more concerned with the irate citizens complaint about the traffic citation they are trying to issue), and from what I've heard , the idea of a firearm present doesn't even become an issue to them UNTIL the situation goes sideways!

                  In several recorded officer LODDs, you see that the officer IS aware that the citizen they encounter is armed or can arm themselves,YET that officer tragically FAILS to identify that the weapon can be become a threat- often far too late.( Texas DPS Trooper Randall Vetter is another tragic example- low grade T/Stop, irate citizen who is ARMED, and threatens to kill Trooper, then is "allowed" to arm himself, and again- shoots trooper DEAD over a "nothing" issues like geting a ticket)

                  Even where I work,you run into ALOT of folks carrying guns,BUT they are FAR from "decent" working folks.Even IF they are "decent" people, they carry a GUN and, just like officers I've seen who get edgy( no pun intended) over a "ped stop" where the individual has a folding knife on their person, Officers in those states where routine contact with CCW holder need to keep that ALERTNESS UP. Some officers need to stop thinking "good citizen","bad citizen", and just concentrate on the tactical and technical aspect of the contact( you can be polite and professional WITHOUT letting your guard down, or "assuming" the person you are contacting is totally "BAD" or "GOOD")

                  Not throwing anyone under the proverbial bus "here", cause "poo" does happen sadly., and EVERYONE here ( big city cop, small town deputy,Transit Patrolman,etc) should strive to do better in terms of protecting themselves....
                  Last edited by DOAcop38; 10-21-2009, 03:55 PM.
                  "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Kieth M. View Post
                    In my time I watched us go from double-action-only altered .38's loaded with 158 gr. round nose lead bullets to hollow points, then 9mm semi-autos, then Kevlar helmets, then slug rounds for the shotgun - 1976 to 1997. Following the NoHo B of A shootout, .45's and AR-15's were approved almost overnight - all the predictions of police officers being at a disadvantage had come true...thankfully, nobody but the two turds had to die, although a few officers were pensioned off with injuries. The switch to Glocks with the option of mounted tac-lights took less time, 2005 - 2006.
                    Sarge, you remember when they built up the 9mm Beretta as "the answer" to confronting suspects armed with hi Cap assault rifles ??
                    "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

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                    • #40
                      Tactics?? We don't NEED no stinking tactics!!!




                      No seriously, this has been discussed on here multiple times. I personally think it goes back to the south just being a macho type of region. This is home of the cowboys, roughnecks, and southern men who operate on our terms and that will be that. After all the south is the only region in the US to say sure we'll take big brother to war (I'm creole far from a confederate before someone goes there). I think that machoism spills over to, you see the suspect, "Get that sumbytch). I tend to think L.A. or southern california is NOT the U.S. hub for cop killers. Unless there is something drank in the water and passed on to offspring they are everywhere, but luckily somehow even though we have our casualties we somehow stay on top. So if it works it works. I also think a bigger factor is that in the south, southern people are born and raised with a greater respect and/or fear (however it needs to fit) for LE in the south. Wasn't all that long ago when a cop in the south dished out justice that never made it's way to a court room. Ugly or not that is just a reality. People down here may yap their gums and occassionally try us, but on a whole people I think have more respect for LE than you find in Cali which is why you encounter more issues of criminal on police violence. JM calcaulation of the situation. I think you guys are good at what yall do over there and I think we do what works for us here. BTW, as an old saying goes it's only wrong if you don't make it home that night.
                      Ignored: Towncop, Pulicords, TacoMac, Ten08

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Code Seven
                        Maybe you just got lucky. That doesn't make your tactics "right." You can make plenty of mistakes and still go home at night. But one day, doing that same "right" thing can get you killed.

                        Slow down gusto, you read waaaaay to much into that

                        If you think high speed low drag LAPD tactics alone is what gets them home at night and not because of luck also your naive. Everything we do is because of luck and the fact that the suspect decided NOT to kill us that night. We minimize but we don't eliminate ANYTHING. The best line I ever heard was in the academy when the instructor said, you only arrest people because people ALLOW you to arrest them. My post wasn't for or against any particular tactics. You don't know what got me home last night from shift because you don't know how I work or what my tactics or dept's tactics are. I will agree I got lucky just like every swinging **** who took their belt off safely after shift last night. There is quite alot of things we don't do and don't agree with due to our own experiences that I see SO Cal agencies all the time on TV do. Doesn't make them anyless WRONG than what we do, but there is more than one way to cook an egg, and everyone believes they have the best egg. I say get over yourself.

                        Fugitive Hunter said, West coast agencies have "better knowledge of the job". I normally agree with FH but that statement was overboard. No one in California can tell me anything about applying Louisiana law and knowlege. They also don't know the way Criminals in my jurisdiction operate, they don't know the street language down here to know when a criminal is plotting something right in their face. No one from anywhere is going to tell me how the dealers in my beat operate, how the burglars operate and other general crime analysis info regarding my beat. I have the "better knowlege of the job" when it comes to effecting my area.
                        Last edited by creolecop; 10-21-2009, 08:20 PM.
                        Ignored: Towncop, Pulicords, TacoMac, Ten08

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Code Seven
                          Maybe you just got lucky. That doesn't make your tactics "right." You can make plenty of mistakes and still go home at night. But one day, doing that same "right" thing can get you killed.
                          As in the case of James Beyea: http://www.odmp.org/officer/1830-pol...james-c.-beyea

                          We used to routinely split up during foot pursuits. It worked a thousand times until the night it did not work. I remember making sergeant and in 1994 putting a couple of guys in for a commendation for chasing/arresting an ex-felon with a gun. It was disapproved as the officers split up. One was driving the black & white and the other was running alongside the car...they were considered 'split up' by the brass.

                          Where I work now, in CO, I was working graveyards about a year ago. I listened in disbelief, on the shared freq, as a deputy announced "My partner's in foot-pursuit, though the houses, southbound X from Y!" The dep on the radio was never out of breath as he gave updates as to what he thought his partner's location was. The responding sergeant had no issues (at least on the air) about the split-up.
                          Last edited by Kieth M.; 10-21-2009, 08:26 PM.
                          "You're never fully dressed without a smile."

                          Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

                          Three things I know for sure: (1) No bad deed goes unrewarded, (2) No good deed goes unpunished, and (3) It is entirely possible to push the most devoted, loyal and caring person beyond the point where they no longer give a 5h!t.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Code Seven
                            I hope you really don't mean this, but you seem to be saying that no tactics are wrong, and that everything we do is based on luck. Well, if that's the case, then let's just get rid of all training programs and redirect the money to other areas, like higher salaries for officers.

                            No one said anything about eliminating risk. But, as you mentioned, we can minimize that risk. And that's where tactics come in. That's why it's not advisable in most cases to "rush" a vehicle after a pursuit, or to search a suspect without controlling his or her hands. Now, as you mentioned, states have different laws, and if your state or department does not allow you to restrain a suspect's hands during a search, then that's another story.
                            Code 7 your ABSOLUTELY right. West coast is God of LE and all us lonley rednecks with our double hip 6 shooters need to spit out our tobakka and get bleach blonde crew cuts, take up surfing and learn the Correct Cali way of Policing. Oh, but wait there is one problem, I work in a 900 man agency and often times I'm still out there by myself having to take justice to the subject. Try waiting for back up and you let them get the upper hand. All that fancy stuff probably does work when you have 21 black and whites at the end of this pursuit and the suspect stays put in the car with his hands up. My county is huge and we have black guys who are patrolling ALONE 30min from the nearest backup in Klan land, (no shyt either straight up klan land, I mean signs up stating the next meeting place and time) and this Deputy has to work out there in pitch dark rural community by HIMSELF. So Tell me what LAPD tactics you have for that. We grab our darn balls and try to be as smart as our southern pea brains allow us to be. Out here your smarts will get you home more than fancy LAPD tactics. FACT!


                            Added in about our last Deputy who was killed. He happened upon a burglary of a business in progress. 3 Burglars ran from the building. He immediately called for backup. During the 17min it took for the first unit to arriva on scene he had gotten into a foot pursuit with 1. They all 3 split up. He didn't have a partner to even split up with if he wanted to. He continued to pursue one hoping to keep him insight or perimetered until back arrived. When he thought he had atleast 1 hunkered down he began to call a perimeter, only problem was he was NOT in So Cal with 50 million units down the street. While hunkered down on the side of a pickup truck parked in a driveway the suspects doubled back on him. shot him in the legs and as he fell to the ground one stood over him and pumped 3 more rounds into him killing him instantly. The first unit arrived to find him dead. Damn no chance for fancy tactics. BTW I am a fan of good training. My Dept stays on our butts with training. We train, train and train some more. We have ALOT of in service but what I'm saying is the best tactics comes down to whether or not the suspect intends to kill you. If taht is the case it comes down to your training, and LUCK! I know I'v been there and it was a combination of both that left him with the bullet wounds and not me.
                            Last edited by creolecop; 10-21-2009, 08:55 PM. Reason: Added officer down story
                            Ignored: Towncop, Pulicords, TacoMac, Ten08

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DOAcop38 View Post
                              ....but conversely, you also work in a place where a "good apology" afterward goes along way, whereas here in So.Cal ,you can bend over backward to apologize( even in most cases where you were 101% right) and the folks- from the yuppie in his BMW to an Lennox 13 hardened homeboy will still growl "F... you !" with the least bit of concern, and your "neck of the woods", the avg citizen might actually get out his/her car and try to help you......

                              Point taken, and true enough.

                              The Deputy you referred to earlier was K. Dinkheller, Laurens County S.O. He was berated repeatedly by his CoC for practicing tactics in an assertiive and proactive manner.

                              This, in turn, led to his hesitation to use lethal force and ultimately his murder.He wasnt a d-bag or anything like that by any stretch. Just to clarify.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by creolecop View Post
                                Code 7 your ABSOLUTELY right. West coast is God of LE and all us lonley rednecks with our double hip 6 shooters need to spit out our tobakka and get bleach blonde crew cuts, take up surfing and learn the Correct Cali way of Policing. Oh, but wait there is one problem, I work in a 900 man agency and often times I'm still out there by myself having to take justice to the subject. Try waiting for back up and you let them get the upper hand. All that fancy stuff probably does work when you have 21 black and whites at the end of this pursuit and the suspect stays put in the car with his hands up. My county is huge and we have black guys who are patrolling ALONE 30min from the nearest backup in Klan land, (no shyt either straight up klan land, I mean signs up stating the next meeting place and time) and this Deputy has to work out there in pitch dark rural community by HIMSELF. So Tell me what LAPD tactics you have for that. We grab our darn balls and try to be as smart as our southern pea brains allow us to be. Out here your smarts will get you home more than fancy LAPD tactics. FACT!


                                Added in about our last Deputy who was killed. He happened upon a burglary of a business in progress. 3 Burglars ran from the building. He immediately called for backup. During the 17min it took for the first unit to arriva on scene he had gotten into a foot pursuit with 1. They all 3 split up. He didn't have a partner to even split up with if he wanted to. He continued to pursue one hoping to keep him insight or perimetered until back arrived. When he thought he had atleast 1 hunkered down he began to call a perimeter, only problem was he was NOT in So Cal with 50 million units down the street. While hunkered down on the side of a pickup truck parked in a driveway the suspects doubled back on him. shot him in the legs and as he fell to the ground one stood over him and pumped 3 more rounds into him killing him instantly. The first unit arrived to find him dead. Damn no chance for fancy tactics.
                                You seem to be getting butt hurt by all of this.

                                Your deputy chased 3 felony suspects alone. Lets be honest, that was a bad move, and should never be repeated.

                                Those fancy tactics are, in FACT, tried and true. There is zero room for debate, it is a stone cold fact.

                                In instances where you operate alone, higher levels of force should be used sooner, than w/ a backup unit there w/ you.

                                Dont get so upset, bro.

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