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  • #46
    Originally posted by t150vsuptpr View Post
    Sad story about your courts, I can see that your courts have instilled a synical view in you. It's not like that everywhere though. In 30 years I have had exactly one DUI dismissed in circuit court by a jury
    Nah, I'm not cynical... just realistic. State and county courts and DA's are underfunded, understaffed, and overwhelmed. Plea agreements and drop-downs are the norm. Even though I win, administrative hearings are just fishing expeditions for attorneys. I don't lose cases -- most just never make it to trial to begin with! Anything under 0.10 is a guaranteed automatic drop to driving to endanger (if anything at all) regardless of impairment. First time offenders pretty much the same.

    Our local DA sent letters to all agencies recently and told us not to write criminal summonses or arrest for things like suspended drivers, improper license plates, and operating without license because they'd just be sent back with "no complaint issued" written on them. The letter encouraged us to find traffic ticket violations that approximate the criminal violations: i.e., expired license ticket for suspended drivers, unregistered ticket for improper plates, etc. This is how they plan on cutting down on their workload.

    I will still stop drunks and keep doing my thing -- just bagged a felony drunk the other night. But I'm definitely more cognizant of what happens further down the line of justice with respect to "routine" drunks, and this weighs heavily on my discretionary decisions during my contacts with them, right or wrong.

    I'm getting off topic here, but this does play in to situational discretion. Nothing and no one says that I MUST arrest a drunk driver. Granted, it's the usual disposition, but it is certainly not mandatory. With our excellent PBT's, if a drunk is under 0.10, it's "call someone to come pick up you and your car." Because in the 30+ minutes it will take to begin an evidentiary breath test, the BAC will be under 0.08. And impairment with a low test doesn't hold water with my prosecutors.

    That's my reality, and that's how I solve the problem for the night. Like Narco said in the companion thread to this one:
    Originally posted by Narco View Post
    we are all given discretion and i can use it as i see fit. when they take that away it's time to look in to another line of work.
    There's always the firefighter gig where I could eat til I'm tired, and sleep til I'm hungry...
    Last edited by Resq14; 03-12-2009, 03:39 AM.
    All Gave Some - Some Gave All

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    • #47
      Originally posted by t150vsuptpr View Post
      Only in some aspects, and not DUI. Exact same presumptive levels, same punishments, all "same same", no mention of LEO or JQP. Truck drivers are arguably held to a higher standard.
      I was referring to the fact that the public holds us to a higher standard even if the law doesn't.
      The DA/SA handgun: A NAZI solution to a problem that didn't exist!

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      • #48
        As long as thugs and scum look out for each, I think (we) officers should do the same, as long as the officer doesn't make it habit.
        Crack is only a problem when you don't have enough!

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        • #49
          Originally posted by akflyer View Post
          I was referring to the fact that the public holds us to a higher standard even if the law doesn't.


          Ummm wellll that's part of something that actually, in part, drew me to this line of work as a kid and young adult.

          I looked up to them then, hard to look up to them, admire them, and not expect them to, at least in part ... live up to the image.

          It's not "just a job" to some of us.

          "That's right man, we've got mills here that'll blow that heap of your's right off the road."

          "Beautiful Daughter of the Stars."(it's my home now)

          >>>>> A Time for Choosing <<<<<

          Retired @ 31yr 2mo as of 0000 hrs. 01-01-10. Yeah, all in all, it was good.

          Comment


          • #50
            My comment on this is to the young guns still deciding how to handle this:

            Of all things, allowing a DWUI to escape punishment is a corruption of why you became a cop - to protect the public.

            A DWUI is among the most selfish and dangerous criminal behaviors you will come across. Far more needless murder, mayhem, destruction and misery, is prevented by professional peace officers arresting drunk drivers, than in any other calling in law enforcement and yet, still, we allow some 25,000 deaths every year from alcohol related crashes.

            "Professional Courtesy?" Young guns, I ask you - is looking the other way, just because the selfish bastard driving drunk has a badge, "professional" or "courteous?"

            I think not. Not in any way. It's UNprofessional and DIScourteous to the public paying you to enforce the law without favor.

            Be a pro. Do what's right. Be brave and do what your heart KNOWS is correct.

            Hook every DWUI you find. Extend NO mercy. None.
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            • #51
              No, I wouldn't arrest you. This job is hard enough as it is with damn near everyone railing against the police, as long as no one is hurt, I will help a fellow officer/Deputy/Trooper.

              I've cut citizens breaks over and over and over, I don't see why I can't cut a fellow LEO a break either. Now, if you continue to exhibit this behavior each week, then you are mistaking kindness for weakness and it's then, when it no longer flies.
              Moooooooooooo, I'm a goat

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              • #52
                No Mercy..1042 Trooper are we in communist russia? Maybe we should line the drunks up in a firing squad and shoot them for a misdemeanor..should people be executed for Driving while suspended and speeding..I personally believe the highest calling in LE is to get illegal weapons off the street. Compare 25,000 to how many agg assaults and murders caused by illegal firearms. So is that your stand..eveyone who make a conscious decison to give a DUI a ride home or have a DD come pick them up is corrupt. I guess we have alot of corrupt cops in this forum then. I guess I would be one of them so be it. You are really helping out your fellow officers with hooking a DUI when there is forty calls hanging in your beat. Some of them being DV's or serious crimes. I guess you never policed in a rough city so I cant explain it to you.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Fugitive Hunter View Post
                  No Mercy..1042 Trooper are we in communist russia? Maybe we should line the drunks up in a firing squad and shoot them for a misdemeanor..should people be executed for Driving while suspended and speeding..I personally believe the highest calling in LE is to get illegal weapons off the street. Compare 25,000 to how many agg assaults and murders caused by illegal firearms. So is that your stand..eveyone who make a conscious decison to give a DUI a ride home or have a DD come pick them up is corrupt. I guess we have alot of corrupt cops in this forum then. I guess I would be one of them so be it. You are really helping out your fellow officers with hooking a DUI when there is forty calls hanging in your beat. Some of them being DV's or serious crimes. I guess you never policed in a rough city so I cant explain it to you.
                  if there are forty calls hanging in your beat why are you out working traffic. you should be focused on answering your calls and let us traffic guys worry about the drunks.

                  I will arrest every single drunk i come accross cop or not. i have been hit by a drunk driver in my patrol car back on 8/18/2005 and it almost cost me my life. he hit me in the passengers door and put me head on into an oak tree. out of work for 2 months and still have back pain to this day. sorry if i dont see it yalls way

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by t150vsuptpr View Post


                    Ummm wellll that's part of something that actually, in part, drew me to this line of work as a kid and young adult.

                    I looked up to them then, hard to look up to them, admire them, and not expect them to, at least in part ... live up to the image.

                    It's not "just a job" to some of us.

                    I'm with ya. Sheesh, I seem to be having a hard time getting this thought across. It "sucks" to be held to a higher standard if you think you should get away with something b/c you let JQP off last time. I don't think it works that way in LE.

                    Oh, and for those people who say we shouldn't be discussing this on a public forum, that statement alone should be setting off alarm bells. I'm of the opinion that if what you are doing can't bear scrutiny then you shouldn't be doing it.
                    The DA/SA handgun: A NAZI solution to a problem that didn't exist!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by 1042 Trooper View Post
                      Of all things, allowing a DWUI to escape punishment is a corruption of why you became a cop - to protect the public.

                      A DWUI is among the most selfish and dangerous criminal behaviors you will come across. Far more needless murder, mayhem, destruction and misery, is prevented by professional peace officers arresting drunk drivers, than in any other calling in law enforcement and yet, still, we allow some 25,000 deaths every year from alcohol related crashes.

                      "Professional Courtesy?" Young guns, I ask you - is looking the other way, just because the selfish bastard driving drunk has a badge, "professional" or "courteous?"

                      I think not. Not in any way. It's UNprofessional and DIScourteous to the public paying you to enforce the law without favor.

                      Be a pro. Do what's right. Be brave and do what your heart KNOWS is correct.

                      Hook every DWUI you find. Extend NO mercy. None.
                      Meanwhile, for the Young Guns with us here on Planet Earth...

                      1. We don't punish people. We solve problems. The public can be protected in ways that don't always require paper or handcuffs. Lawful application of DISCRETIONARY POWERS is not corruption. No one here except for 1042 and his Kool Aid drinkers believes this.

                      2. Drunk driving is not the most dangerous criminal behavior. And there is a definite difference between murder and manslaughter in my mind (and also in many states' laws), even if it seems like semantics to some since the outcome is obviously the same: homicide. It's easy to get emotional and spout of rhetoric, but the reality is drunk driving is a strict liability misdemeanor for most bread and butter cases in most places.

                      3. "Hook every ___________" is a shallow 'monkey see, monkey do' way to go about law enforcement.

                      4. No mercy? I thought compassion was an admirable attribute. Interesting.

                      I take pride in getting drunks off the road when there is nothing else going on, so I do share that with most people here. I just disagree with the mentality of a select few here in the "how" and "why" things are done... especially those who have the audacity to suggest that I can't determine the best way to handle a given situation.

                      Maine Law:
                      "A law enforcement officer who has probable cause to believe a crime has been or is being committed by a person may issue or have delivered a written summons "

                      "Except as otherwise specifically provided, a law enforcement officer may arrest without a warrant: "

                      Every situation is unique. Monkey police work is not something of which I'd be proud.

                      And for those of you just joining us, I'll repeat: On more than one occasion I have allowed a drunk to call for a ride home. If I should encounter an off-duty officer I suspected was driving while impaired (no collision, no disorderly conduct), s/he would have two options:

                      Option A. Car is towed; s/he is driven home or somewhere else by me
                      Option B. Car is towed and to jail we go.

                      Like I wrote earlier, I give these options to persons OTHER than off-duty officers when I determine it is the best way to handle a given situation, though it's definitely the exception not the rule. I've also dropped the hammer hard on borderline cases where I determined it was the best way to handle the situation.

                      God forbid officers actually THINK.
                      Last edited by Resq14; 03-13-2009, 05:39 AM.
                      All Gave Some - Some Gave All

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                      • #56
                        I guess the thing that bugs me is that DUI isn't being treated like a serious crime by some of the folks here. Just because there is "no collision, no disorderly conduct" doesn't change the severity of a DUI.

                        If someone drove past a park and started firing a gun at random, but no one was hurt, would you just let him go? No, because he COULD HAVE killed someone (firing shots randomly) with a DEADLY WEAPON (a gun). Same thing with a DUI, they COULD HAVE killed someone (through impairment) with a deadly weapon (a vehicle).

                        I just can't believe the indifference towards DUI shown by other OFFICERS of all people. This isn't a noise complaint or a speeding ticket people. It is a serious crime that KILLS.

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                        • #57
                          DUI is an issue, I dont agree with it being a serious crime,,a drive by shooting, aggravated assault..1st degree burglary, carjacking,those are serious crimes. At least according to Arizona Revised Statues. Too many officers here in AZ park across the street from bars waiting for there easy arrest. Meanwhile some smuck is shooting up a house a block away or doing a carjacking. There are more ways to deter DUI and handling it then arresting everyone one of them. Just like handling every othere misdemeanor, if you booked every misdemeanor or filed on it we wouldnt have any cops on the street. Some folks dont know how to use their common sense.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by akflyer View Post
                            I'm with ya. Sheesh, I seem to be having a hard time getting this thought across. It "sucks" to be held to a higher standard if you think you should get away with something b/c you let JQP off last time. I don't think it works that way in LE.
                            I have read that several times and am not sure I understand .... but here goes .... you mean to maybe say in a manner ...
                            ... that if you are Officer I.L.Booze and you let 3 of the last 7 DUIs you caught go home, that it sucks when Officer J.W.Books catches you drunk driving on your way home from a bar at 2am on your day off and he arrests you? ...
                            ... or maybe instead...
                            ... he takes you home and you tell your wife what happened and soon all the ladies at the hairdressers are told and then some citizen shows up with a video he took from the dark and it hit's the news papers and suddenly the chief is being asked to conduct a formal investigation with an aim to maybe fire you (Officer I.L.Booze) for being DUI and him (Officer J.W.Books) for taking you home instead of arresting you like all the other citizens you and he have arrested who got suspended licenses, jail time, big fines, paid lawyers, attended ASAP meetings, lost jobs maybe?

                            Yes, I agree .... it would suck to be either Officer I.L.Booze in either instance, or Officer J.W.Books in the latter instance .... with their new found worries.
                            I guess it all goes back to a decision that Officer I.L.Booze made a long time ago when he adopted a laid back attitude towards DUI and started letting half of his DUI suspects go home 'cause he too liked to drink.

                            Was I even close?

                            ___________________________________

                            Originally posted by Fugitive Hunter
                            DUI is an issue, I dont agree with it being a serious crime, a drive by shooting, aggravated assault..1st degree burglary, carjacking,those are serious crimes. At least according to Arizona Revised Statues. Too many officers here in AZ park across the street from bars waiting for there easy arrest. Meanwhile some smuck is shooting up a house a block away or doing a carjacking.
                            I don't now a lot about where you work or what it is you place priorities on, but here we see more death and maiming as a result of DUI drivers than drive by shhotings, agr. assaults, DV, burglary, etc. Only the first two convictions in a 10 year period are misdemeanors and those are class 1 misdemeanors, up to 12 months in jail and/or $2,500 fines can be handed down. Third in a ten year period is a felony, time starts in years. You do not get to the felony without them first two misdemeanors.

                            You go and knock on a man's door at two AM and tell him that his wife, their 17 year old daughter, and their 13 year old son didn't come home yet from visiting grandma because they were killed when a DUI driver in a 1 ton dualie crossed the center line at 80+ and hit their Subaru Outback head on and that it took several hours after the fire was out to even get an idea of who they might be and to please come identify the remains .... and then ... please let him know how not so serious DUI is in your estimation.
                            Originally posted by Fugitive Hunter
                            There are more ways to deter DUI and handling it then arresting everyone one of them. Just like handling every othere misdemeanor, if you booked every misdemeanor or filed on it we wouldnt have any cops on the street.
                            "More ways to deter DUI ..." ? Like for instance .... ???????

                            I will delay even some felony calls for a DUI. A burglary call where someone comes home and finds the house buglarized but who is safe now, just waiting on officers to come, will wait for my DUI. An agrevated assault where the complainant/victim is at the SO waiting to talk to me can wait long enough to process this DUI. In fact, almost any call I can think of will either wait, or be handled by someone else, or we'll call someone out if necessary .... exception being life and limb in emminant danger and I'm in position to help (officer 10-33, I hear a scream followed by a shot in farmhouse nearby, etc) ... and then if I need to I can "drop back and punt" (though I must say, in 30 years, have never yet been in a position even remotely approaching such as that, though have seen a second DUI scooped up on the way to jail with first).

                            A DUI represents a serious breach of the peace, it is one misdemeanor that has the potential to strike out with finality and total randomness and reach into the lives of any innocent whose path crosses it. Not even a police officer responding to another serious crime is immune to the reach of the DUI driver he meets.

                            DUI is not a mistake, it is the result of a conscious decision made while still sober when one decides to take the first drink and knows they'll be driving later. It's not that they mean to kill or that they don't care, it's simply that they don't mind taking that risk so that they can have that drink. No citizen, and no LEO can lay claim to not knowing the seriousness of DUI or it's residual effects on the innocent families of both the guilty and innocent.

                            Arrest and the whole deal is the one most effective way one can be reasonably sure of causing change, and even if not sucessful in causing change ... it get's them off the road for that night, maybe let's some other family have another peaceful day. Sure, there are a few cases where one warning worked maybe, I think someone wrote of such in this very thread ... but those are abboritions, they are not the norm. And even in that case, while a warning worked that once, an arrest would have likewise worked at least as well.

                            I don't arrest to cause a man to loose a job or spend time in jail or to garner big fines or to help lawyers pay their bills ...
                            ... I do it to most effectively deterr a dangerous & criminal behaviour. It is an opportunity (even very nearly a "gift from above") to be able to stop and arrest, thus intercept, a DUI driver before he/she kills and it should not simply be ... discarded.

                            Originally posted by Fugitive Hunter
                            Some folks dont know how to use their common sense.
                            Yeah, I can agree with you there.

                            Trouble is, "common sense" ain't quite so common as some would have us believe.

                            I'm sure that how your courts treat a crime spills over into how the officers there treat it, but having had my life touched mor than once by DUI drivers and seeing the results, and with some of those DUI drivers being family (couple uncles or cousins ... and my sister one time), I can only view it as serious. I know from watching a couple uncles as I grew up how destructive it is and how hard it is to shake the grip of alcohol, and how it takes powerful motivational forces for one to get free, if such is to ever happen at all.

                            An arrest is about as powerful a motivational force as I can lawfully apply to most DUI drivers.
                            Last edited by t150vsuptpr; 03-13-2009, 12:37 PM. Reason: cleaned up
                            "That's right man, we've got mills here that'll blow that heap of your's right off the road."

                            "Beautiful Daughter of the Stars."(it's my home now)

                            >>>>> A Time for Choosing <<<<<

                            Retired @ 31yr 2mo as of 0000 hrs. 01-01-10. Yeah, all in all, it was good.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Resq14
                              ... etc ...

                              And for those of you just joining us, I'll repeat: On more than one occasion I have allowed a drunk to call for a ride home. If I should encounter an off-duty officer I suspected was driving while impaired (no collision, no disorderly conduct), s/he would have two options:

                              Option A. Car is towed; s/he is driven home or somewhere else by me
                              Option B. Car is towed and to jail we go.

                              Like I wrote earlier, I give these options to persons OTHER than off-duty officers when I determine it is the best way to handle a given situation, though it's definitely the exception not the rule. I've also dropped the hammer hard on borderline cases where I determined it was the best way to handle the situation.

                              God forbid officers actually THINK.
                              It's simply enabling. It's enabling the drunk to do it once again. And one day (or night), they'll maybe kill.
                              Last edited by t150vsuptpr; 03-13-2009, 02:27 PM.
                              "That's right man, we've got mills here that'll blow that heap of your's right off the road."

                              "Beautiful Daughter of the Stars."(it's my home now)

                              >>>>> A Time for Choosing <<<<<

                              Retired @ 31yr 2mo as of 0000 hrs. 01-01-10. Yeah, all in all, it was good.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                When I smell the odor of alcohol coming from the vehicle i dont accept badges or credit cards only DL and proof of insurance. You will get the same chance that any other 55 gets I will do sfst's and then I only have two choices. If you show me enough signs of impairment then you goto jail I dont care if you MY CHIEF! No one forced the drinks down your throat and threw you behind the wheel. No one gets a 55 pass. If I could tack on attempted murder then I would. There are enough 55 in the city that have and can run over officers on the side of the road we dont need one of our own doing it.

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