LE Motorcycle Clubs/Sturgis Shooting

[mpnj75TPD]

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[Smurfette_76]

1) Paragraphs are your friend

2) Your "facts" are still somewhat opinions.

3) What are our views on what? You've crammed so much stuff in there, by time I got to the end, I forgot what the beginning said.

[mpnj75TPD]

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[Kilrain]

Iron Pigs MC a LEMC member shot a Hells ANgel MC member a 1%MC, in Sturgis. Reports from people on scene say IPMC member was sucker punched and knocked to the ground and began to get stomped and kicked in the head by members of HAMC. The IPMC member thus being in danger of serious physical injury or death pulled his off-duty weapon and fired striking a HAMC member in the stomach and leg. Incident currently under investigation by several law enforcment agencies.

Sounds about right from what I’ve read so far however I do believe it is still under investigation/review. As always, because I’m a cop, the benefit of the doubt goes to the officer however if the investigation reveals something else, then it will be dealt with appropriately methinks.

First off before anyone even comments on this subject read the following. I want it clean. No disrespect to anyone. Mature adult conversation. Have an open mind.

Okay.

Also read these facts:
Fact #1: Motorcyle CLubs and the 3 piece patch design predate 1% motorcycle clubs, the first motorcycle club who were not 1 % and had a 3 piece patch date back to 1935 and was compromised of war vets and working class Americans.

If you say so. I have no personal knowledge either way and have not done the research to either support or contradict your statement. I will take it at face value and as factual for purposes of this discussion.

Fact #2: Most 1% motorcycle clubs did not start as 1% clubs and evolved into them.

Okay, I believe that also since I’m sure at the time of the formation of the first motorcycle clubs, the idea of “1%” of motorcycle riders being “bad” or “outlaw” or “criminal” or whatever didn’t occur to them.

Fact #3: The style of ones dress (Baggy clothes, wallet chains, bandanas, exc..), what they ride (Motorcycle, low rider, monster truck, exc.) or if they are a member of a motorcycle club (3 piece patch, 2 piece patch, 1 piece patch, exc.) is the free right of any American and in no way gives anyone, LE or Civilian cause to discriminate against them and have prejudice and include them in same cadigory with a criminal element who may wear similar style of dress. The Nazi's wore uniforms, so do US Soldiers and Police.

Well, now we part ways just a bit. While I don’t have a problem with law enforcement motorcycle clubs in general, if your club is set up, run and looks like an outlaw club, trouble will find you, regardless of your intention. As has been said in other posts, if an LAPD Officer who is black dresses up in baggy clothes and “flies” a red rag while walking through Crip territory gets assaulted or shot at, he was part of the problem, not the solution. Now, do I personally care if that happens? Do I care if the cops want to dress like outlaw bikers and have a club that is set up like an outlaw biker club? Not really. The flip side is, I don’t want them whining when bad things happen because they chose to do it. If the officer was justified, he was justified and we will find out. If not, then we will find that out too. But don’t complain about bad things happening when you intentionally put yourself in a situation where bad things are likely to happen.

Fact #4: Just because someone may talk to or even know a member of a 1% Motorcycle CLub in no way makes that person an "Affilate" or a criminal. As long as they are not involved in the commision of criminal activity or oberserve but not act in presence of criminal activity they are in no way acting in conduct unbecoming or otherwise. (there are many cops/civilians who may know, have family members, neighbors whatever who are in a 1% mc. As long as they do not participate or be present but not act or become involved in anything illegal than under the American Constitution they are doing nothing wrong)

I’m not sure about your Department, but both of the Departments that I’ve worked for had a policy forbidding sworn personnel from fraternizing with felons, family not withstanding. Take it for what it is worth.

Fact #5: LEMC have the God given American right to wear patch with 3, 1 or 20 patches. 1% DO NOT regulate style of dress, the road, bars/taverns or anything else for that matter. America is a free country and we ALL have the right to ride, dress and go wherever we want without fear of discrimination by ANYONE.

Uh..........no, this is absolutely not true and a ridiculous statement at best. There have been plenty of court ordered injunctions against gangs in California forbidding them from associating with other gang members and/or frequenting certain places. These have been challenged in various courts and found to be perfectly acceptable and constitutional. Also, you can’t go “wherever we(you) want” without fear of discrimination. Do you think a white guy can attend a Black Panther Party meeting without fear of discrimination? Can a Jew attend an American Nazi Party meeting without being discriminated against? As a matter of fact, a bar, while a public place, is also private property and entry can be denied to any person for pretty much no reason at all.

Fact #6: LEMC are NOT emulating 1% clubs. They are in fact a Motorcycle Club and since motorcycle clubs have been around they are compromised of guys/gals who ride motorcycles and have a vest with a center patch denoting club logo, top patch denoting club name and may or may not have a bottom patch denoting location. 1% mcs do not have right to claim this as "their" design" they in fact copied this design from motorcycle clubs and went on to become law breaking scumbags thus giving the image a bad name. The image is though in fact still a free right of any American and they should not be discriminated against because some scum look similar.

I’ll take your word for it as to the origins of the three patch design as it relates to motorcycle clubs. That being said, you have the right to wear your patch. You also have the responsibility to deal with the consequences when your law enforcement motorcycle club is mistaken for a rival outlaw motorcycle club and is attacked by the Hell’s Angels.

Fact #7: Most 1% MCs hate us cops and wouldnt think twice before stabbing, shooting or beating us to death.

While I agree that outlaw motorcycle clubs aren’t exactly law enforcement friendly, most would think twice(or more) about attacking a cop. They know what happens if they do and they are aware of the consequences that it brings down on the club in general. Not saying they won’t, but they generally won’t unless it has been authorized by a higher authority within the club.

Fact #8: Most civilain motorcycle riders ride in fear because these 1% scumbags try to exert fear and control over anyone who rides a motorcycle or wants to belong to a regular non-1% MC.

Uh.......once again, no. Most motorcycle riders, regardless of what they ride, go about their daily business and riding their scooters and never give a thought to outlaw motorcycle clubs. That is because most riders don’t wear a three piece back patch on their denim or leather jacket that could be easily mistaken, or possibly emulates, the style of patch worn by outlaw motorcycle clubs.

With all that being said let it be known that I am an avid motorcycle rider. I was in my PDs motorcycle unit for 2 years before I became a Narcotics detective. I don’t belong to any clubs because I don’t want to deal with all the hassle from 1% MCs or my own LE brothers who look down and discriminate against seemingly EVERYONE who rides a motorcycle.

I have never experienced what you are talking about when it comes to cops “discriminating” against cops for wanting to ride a motorcycle. Once again, I don’t doubt your experience and take your word for it although I have no response to it.

What is all your views on this and please try not to argue on here with anyone who may have a differing opinion. Discuss this like mature adults and if you have to agree to disagree. Thank you.

I’d like to think I complied with your request to discuss this issue calmly and rationally. Take it for what is worth............which ain’t much.

[IMachU]

Too many rules. I'm out.

[Kilrain]

Too many rules. I'm out.

The only rule, when you cut through it, was please be civil. Aside from that, his post was hard to read. I cut and pasted it into a word processor where I could open it up a bit to better understand what he was saying. It was some work but I was bored...........................

[mpnj75TPD]

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[mpnj75TPD]

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[Kilrain]

Kilrain: On the contrary I value your statement and think it is worth its weight.

Thank you. I saw a post that I thought many would skip over and not give serious answers to simply because it wasn’t well written. This post is much easier to read. In retrospect, it is obvious that this is a subject that you feel strongly about and you first post was written with more passion than attention to grammar. No problem, we all get P.O.’d from time to time.

You are correct in that if anyone chooses to wear a patch and dress or hang out in certain places then yes they have to deal with the possibility of certain consequences.

This is the basis for all that follows. As long as you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, I have no problem with what happens after that. Just don’t whine about it, that’s all. Not saying you would, just saying.

Fraternizing with fellons is wrong yes. I simply meant in the "real" world if you have a neighbor who is say an HA or your auto mechanic then obviously you will have certain limited dealings with that person and that doesnt really classify as fraternizing. Even say you are at a bar and you run into this person in a public setting and he buys you a beer or the reverse that too is not fraternizing. Now if you are at outlaw club events with this person and partying with patched members of an outlaw mc then you have crossed the line.

I hear what you are saying. As a matter of fact, my mechanic for many years was a convicted felon for serious drug charges. That is not what I was talking about and not what you are talking about as is now clear. As for a Hell’s Angel buying me a beer, I’d have to politely decline for a myriad of reasons, fraternization being the least of my worries. My main concern would be for my safety, not knowing what he may have put in, or had put in, the beer.

While Sturgis is an all comers type event, most non-biker types, rightly or wrongly, probably see it as primarily an outlaw motorcycle club event. While that perception may not be fair, it is real and we must never forget that in the minds of the public, perception is reality. Once we get to court, things change and the actual facts begin to matter.

We can go wherever we want if it is a public place. Now if a private owned bar doesnt let you in obviously you cant go in. Thats just common sence. I meant an outlaw mc has no right to declare a bar there clubs property and ban cops or anyone else for that matter from going there. Once again if an outlaw mc hangs somewhere and you go there then once again you have to deal with the possibility of something bad happening.

Yes, an outlaw motorcycle club can’t just declare a location “theirs.” However if the proprietor of a particular location allows them in, guess what they think? They, like most predatory animals, will take what they can get and when given an inch will take a mile. Bottom line, as you stated, is that if you go somewhere that the Hell’s Angels are hanging out, accept the consequences of your actions when it all goes horribly wrong.

As for outlaw mcs hating cops and not thinking twice about doing violence to us. Obviously they arnt going to outright attack us because we outnumber them and we are the law. I meant that they do in fact despise us and if given the opportunity not all but some might possibly act on that hatred as example by what happened in Sturgis.

Yes, they don’t like us and would attack and harm us any way they could IF they could get away with it. Although I don’t know what happened specifically in this case, I get the impression that the Hell’s Angels probably didn’t know that the Iron Pigs was a law enforcement motorcycle club. Perhaps I’ll be proved wrong.

As far as regular motorcycle guys riding in fear of outlaw mcs. Of course people arnt in total fear. But you can believe if the average guy on a harley comes upon patched members of a 1%MC his OH-**** factor went up a few notches. Especially if you are a member of a non-1%MC and live in an area where 1%MCs are prevelant.

Maybe, maybe not. In my area we have not had a major problem with outlaw clubs in many years. In fact, the last run in we(the cops) had with them turned out to be no problem since we called in off duty Deputies and actually outnumbered the Hell’s Angels at the particular event.

As for somebody’s feelings when a 1%er rides up next to him......well, there is no accounting for human feelings or frailties.

Hopefully not in your area but in mine yes saddly a lot of cops IA included look down on cops who ride harleys, have tattoos and belong no LEMC or local non-1% MCs. It’s a sad fact that hopefully changes.

That sucks. Last time I heard something like this at my Department was a couple of years ago. A newly promoted Lieutenant made a comment about an off duty Deputy’s tattoos and how he looked like a parolee. Once his comments made the rounds in the Department, the new Lieutenant was told to shut his mouth and keep his opinions to himself.

Thank you for your comments, I value everyones statements. Its good to get lots of different views.

I agree. Good luck with your post.

[Frank Booth]

In regards to your statement that my facts are opinions. Actually they are fact.

I thought the same thing she did. They look like opinion to me.

Cop clubs aren't trying to look like 1%er's? Riiiight.

[cocoa25]

I like brownies, they are good.

[mpnj75TPD]

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[Frank Booth]

Frank Booth: Once again motorcycle clubs have been around long before 1%.

And the "Swastika" symbol was around long before Hitler was born and had nothing to do with Nazis. Big deal. It's become almost exclusively associated with Nazi's just like many of the 1%er icons have become almost exclusively assoicated with them. Long hair, unwashed rags, 3-piece patches, and on, and on. People who dress like scumbags (and that's what 1%ers are, period), are going to be associated with scumbags whether they are or not. They know this and I can't help but think many of them enjoy it and that's the end result they're after.

Either way, why a bunch of grown men would have a need to "play dress-up" after putting in 25 years wearing a uniform is beyond me. They're exchanging one uniform for another, one book of "general orders" for another, they have to be "rookies" all over again, be on "probation" all over again. More power to them if thats the way they roll, but in my OPINION, I think it's a little bit weird. And in some cases, a LOT a bit weird as some of these cops, former cops and retired cops start hanging out with 1%ers.

[mpnj75TPD]

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[sabrerattler]

My daddy taught me " If you lay down with dogs dont be surprised if you get up with fleas"