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  • amp2112
    replied
    Tell him off

    You may be "rookie" and he may be an FTO, but you've got one job to do.
    GO HOME SAFE!! You've got the badge, ypu've got the gun, your the police. You didn't take this job to get hurt by anybody, or for anybody. If he's more worried about what happens to the car then he should be a mechanic. What's he gonna do if someones taking shots at you and you need it as cover? Wil he search for a better location so the car doesn't get bullet holes in it?

    Good Luck, Stay Safe
    Amp

    Leave a comment:


  • LE2BE
    replied
    Locking doors on traffic stops I work a two man unit in a big city (9800 sworn) so some of our practices do not apply to more rural areas with single manned units... but... a car is just property and can be replaced. I'm assuming that most departments have shops with ballistic panels in the doors? We were always to told to get away from the "Coffin", because thats where they will shoot... but sometimes you have no other choice but to rely on your car for cover.

    Kinda off topic... but I had a partner who was great... pretty much on the same page.. ex marine (could be the problem)... I've been trained to be the first one out on a stop as the passenger... pretty much having one foot on the ground as the car comes to a stop. I always leave the passenger door open then approach the car and clear it before the driver approaches. My partner would always go back to run the info on the MDT and would close my door when he got out. That always bugged me... I guess I feel that as a cover Officer, I have no other job than to cover... so I should be able to keep an eye on the car if someone comes near.

    Leave a comment:


  • chiefcop
    replied
    What is up with that!>?

    I must first say I agree with the posts that use the terms idiot, moron, etc. describing this FTO.
    Sounds like another power hungry officer wannabe.

    Any training officer that takes action that places another officer in a dangerous situation is not fulfilling the duties of a true FTO.

    Why did he take the keys and shut the patrol off>>>??? To keep the unit safe.

    Whay about the issues mentioned such as dead batteries, inablilty to get into the vehicle rapidly in an emergency, poor portable radio range area, Ohhh boy I cannot deal with going any further....just plain stupid.

    The other issue of evaluating you is noble but he placed himself in a very officer unsafe position...IN FRONT OF THE SUBJECTS' CAR!!!!! I do not think that I need to explain this one.....does SPLAT mean anything?

    In response to your questions:

    Is this a common practice anywhere else?
    In 14 years I have not seen this practice on a traffic stop. I lock my vehicle on and always have 2 keys available on a moments notice to enter the car. This is not to demean any officer that uses this practice as there are different geographical issues that involve people coming to take the car when you are at the violator's window...

    -What are your thoughts on it?
    I think that this FTO should look at the department SOPs, training in the academy, and other issues to see if he is training you correctly. An FTOs responsibility is to ensure a trained, officer is on the street....trained in all aspects of LE including department SOPs. If this procedure of locking up the vehicle on a traffic stop is not in the dept SOPs, this FTO is looking to get sued in a big way.

    -Do you think I handled the situation appropriately?

    Some comments here say don't question the FTO etc.....well in general I agree....BUT In matters of officer safety, in matters of things you do not understand, I would think that asking for an explaination would be appropriate. After all the FTO process is that of an educational process, thus learning is needed to take place. If you don't ask you won't know. When I was FTOing I encouraged questions and made sure the officer would have the knowledge to make better future decisions...I would not say you must do it my way because I am the boss......that is Bull, I would make sure that the officer I trained would save my bacon when I needed it!

    -Do you have recommendations about talking to a Sgt or somebody about this FTO to keep somebody from getting hurt?

    Get through your training program and follow your department procedures. In the future this FTO will get some training as well...I hope.

    SOME, only some, officers that become an FTO get a GOD complex and feel that their duty is to become a God in front of the "trainee"......just deal with it for now and remember when you are on the streets it is YOUR life on the line......YOU must make informed, educated and good decisiions
    Last edited by chiefcop; 08-19-2008, 02:53 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • WKT
    replied
    I installed a brake light cut-off switch at the fusebox in my car. The switch is very accessible to the driver, but it's not obvious to anyone who doesn't already know it's there. The good thing is that when the switch is in the 'off' position, the car can't be taken out of 'park'. This will most likely keep someone from taking it. I use it when I have a prisoner in the back and need to be out of the car for something, and also on stops.

    Somebody might get in my car, but they're not going to move it. Since you're probably not in your own car, or may not be able to modify the way I have, this may not be an option for you.

    Having said all that, I would go along with whatever your FTO says until you're out of training, unless it becomes a significant safety issue. Then you can do it your own way when you're out on your own. If it is a safety issue, tell a supervisor. I would probably present it to them as if I was just giving them some information, and let them know that I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble, but that it concerns me. Then let the supervisor take it from there.

    From what you've explained, I don't see it as a serious safety issue, just not the smartest thing in the world. I realize there are probably a few scenarios that could be conjured up to support the idea that it IS a safety issue, but you could say that about most any situation.

    I'd let it go, for now.

    Leave a comment:


  • tony.o
    replied
    Originally posted by 10-31Mike View Post
    I second that.

    But around here it's not the pay (about $40 a month, don't spend it all in one place), it's to get a take home car.

    To the O.P. (and you probably already know this) just put up with it while you have to. There's so many reasons why he's wrong it's not worth the time to write them.

    The key to any law enforcement career is to get off probation. After that do what you think is right.
    No take home car here, but its a 5% raise.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplyacop
    replied
    As a training officer all I can say is WTF??? I would never teach a trainee to turn off the car, lock it either. ON a traffic stop you may have to run and chase the violator down, run for cover, or even arrest the person and if the car is locked it is another hassle to unlock it.

    I think you handled the situation very well. If this keeps up i would inform your sarge or training section of the problem.

    If all else fails tell him it both of your car and come to an understanding

    Leave a comment:


  • Resq14
    replied
    Originally posted by BigRob View Post
    i lock my vehicle on everything but a traffic stop.
    ditto.

    I've never heard of such a thing... for all the reasons already brought up.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRob
    replied
    Originally posted by Garbage Man View Post
    Look at him and politely say,

    "dude you're an idiot."

    1. If the light bar keeps going while your car is off your going to be calling for a tow on any extended stop cuz that thing is a battery killer.

    2. If the light bar turns off ,then you are on a stop with no warning flashers to the rear? I don't think so.

    3. As you walk up to the car, the suspect does the famous stunt of taking off and now you have to mess with the car keys?

    4 The great likelihood that you are accidentally going to lock your keys in the car because for some strange reason your attention is focused on the violator.

    Maybe you should tell him how much you respect his experience and point of view and, with a warm smile, say,

    "Look Barney, put your bullet in your gun and watch as I show you how to really do police work, OK? Try not to be scared."
    that was hilarious garbageman!!!

    on a serious note that guy is an idiot...so many obvious reasons not to lock your vehicle on a traffic stop....i lock my vehicle on everything but a traffic stop.
    Last edited by BigRob; 08-18-2008, 02:01 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • katseiye
    replied
    Perhaps making an extra key for your duty key ring to the squad will alleviate the problem w/out causing much friction so you can leave it running and still lock it. Assuming the dept will allow it.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with turning it off much less locking it on a vehicle stop for all of the above stated reasons, but also understand you really don't wnt to start a p**sing match w/ th FTO.

    Leave a comment:


  • SgtCHP
    replied
    FTOs have the responsibility of teaching you all of the aspects of field work and the policies and procedures of the agency you are working for, it is a simple as that! They should not be teaching you anything that is not directed by policy or procedure. If the agency says that it wants its officers to turn off and lock the unit, then that should be the practice. However, if it is just a whim and that FTO likes to operate in that manner, then he is in the wrong.

    Now, that being said, it is your responsibility to listen to your FTO and operate under his work ethics as long as they do not jeopardize your personal safety. Do as he directs, if you don't feel comfortable, keep it in the back of your mind and modify it once you are off of field training and on your own.

    FTOs straight out of FTO school are not unlike brand new sergeants. It takes a little while for that frontal lobotomy to take effect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Garbage Man
    replied
    Look at him and politely say,

    "dude you're an idiot."

    1. If the light bar keeps going while your car is off your going to be calling for a tow on any extended stop cuz that thing is a battery killer.

    2. If the light bar turns off ,then you are on a stop with no warning flashers to the rear? I don't think so.

    3. As you walk up to the car, the suspect does the famous stunt of taking off and now you have to mess with the car keys?

    4 The great likelihood that you are accidentally going to lock your keys in the car because for some strange reason your attention is focused on the violator.

    Maybe you should tell him how much you respect his experience and point of view and, with a warm smile, say,

    "Look Barney, put your bullet in your gun and watch as I show you how to really do police work, OK? Try not to be scared."
    Last edited by Garbage Man; 08-14-2008, 03:28 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • K9Tom
    replied
    I would say deal with while you are assigned to him. Once you are done with him, I would have a talk with him, respectfully of course, and further explain your position. My concern here is new rookies that have no experience. If they have an FTO tell them to do it a certain way, that can stick, and next thing you know half the department locks up the car on a traffic stop. I have seen some FNG's doing some strange things lately and when I ask them why, I get "so and so trained me to do it this way". I am not seeing the FTO's train unsafe at all, the small things I have observed were admin and paperwork type issues. I don't lock my car on traffic stops at all. If I need my dog, it's quicker and easier to pop the door by remote if the door is not locked. I do lock my car on most radio calls where I am not very close to my car, or am inside any building.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kieth M.
    replied
    Never seen it done, in 30 years of big city police work. Looked cock-eyed at a partner who turned the engine off on a T-stop. Asked him why he did it. He said motors do it.

    This FTO will stop doing it the day he's completing a call and some DUI or speeder blows by him at mach 5 and he fumbles with the keys trying to open the door and/or get them into the ignition.

    As other have said, bide your FTO time. It will pss.

    Leave a comment:


  • LA DEP
    replied
    Originally posted by Retired96 View Post
    I have never heard of locking a patrol car on a traffic stop. What if the poop hits the fan. What if you suddenly need the shotgun or rifle in the car, you have to take the precious time to unlock the car. Your safety and that of your FTO is far more important than a big piece of metal.

    Do all the other officers lock their cars on traffic stops?
    +1......

    I dont know of anyone that locks their radio car on traffic stops......some will while they are out on a radio call, but never on traffic stops.....

    Leave a comment:


  • Nightshift va
    replied
    Loyality

    You are not a boot spring chicken "rook" for one thing. Having said that and being an FTO i totally understand your position on "going along with the program" so not to make waves then just getting off FTO and doing things the way you think you should. If you were my recruit I would welcome your input and respect the fact that you are not a true rookie, it doesn't mean I would change what I wanted you to do it just means I wouldn't hold it against you in the least. Having said that, I do not think locking your unit on a traffic stop is the right approach at all. Especially if you do not have a remote keyless entry to include not only the recruit but the FTO as well, then maybe it would be acceptable but not practical or safe. You might have to get back into the unit quickly or reposition your vehicle quickly or get into a pursuit and unlocking the unit without keyless entry takes time when the caca hits the fan and gross motor skills go out the window. I also never get in front of a one or two ton weapon like a vehicle that is running after I just stopped said operator who probably isn't very happy I stopped them and if i do it's with the car off and the keys out of the ignition and it would be to check lights or inspection stickers. You have to choose your battles though, what kind of FTO do you have? Is this moronic practice of always locking the doors even on a stop worth you going over his head weighed on officer safety issue's or can you deal with it and move on until you are released. Only you can decide that issue and If it was me I'd tell him in a respectful manner that he was wrong on the issue and cite your reasons then tell him you have every intention of doing as he says but "respectfully dissagree" then let it go. He should respect your input and not hold it against you if you dont break the chain of command and have a valid point and you do. FTO's are only human and are not always right and the best one's know this and are willing to explain their decisions and either back it up with work experiences related to the concern or policy and procedure and general orders. I'm an FTO and I deal with these types of issue's all the time because I train both rookies and pre-certs and usually enjoy the pre-certs better because I do not mind input at times at ways in doing things even if I do not always agree.

    Leave a comment:

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