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  • VA Police vs DoD Police

    A military buddy of mine just got offered a DoN Police position but also has received a tentative offer with the VA Police. I told him to take the VA Police vs any DoD agency because in my exposure they both are security oriented but at least VA is more established per se. Standardized credentials, quarterly DT/FI training vs DoD which really seems piece meal depending on location. He is prior USAF SP and could do the DoD no problem but although I'm not impressed with the VA Police academy (I think all 0083 should attend UPTP), I still think they are better. Some detective positions and we hired a VA Police Capt into our agency who has quite squared away as an 1811.
    ...and is commended as being worthy of trust and confidence

  • #2
    Navy now sends its officers to FLETC UPTP. With the VA he'll have statutory authority. Supposedly a pay raise and paygrade system equivalent to the Treasury's TR scale is in the works for the VA Police. VA's are kinda hit and miss, the one I worked at was a huge psych hospital which had jurisdiction on a national cemetery, a national guard training facility and several civilian properties that were developed on the VA Property.
    I don't answer recruitment messages....

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    • #3
      TR scale? is that increase of the GS? I just Treasury 0083 (Mint and BEP) were just higher graded GS 8 or 9. I unaware DON was sending their guys to UPTP. I did see a few DoD guys at UPTP and LMPT last year, but again it was piecemeal. I heard that DOA at least standardized 0083 credentials for LEOSA off duty. I think there is even an image I saw of them at some Army Regulation on a website. I'm not sure the rest of the DOD branches have, though I know USAF has done creds for LEOSA retirees not sure if that applies to the 0083.

      We have actually had some VA Cops show up at quarterly shoot and UoF training. Their Chief is a former FAM and lets them trg quite a bit with other agencies in our area.
      ...and is commended as being worthy of trust and confidence

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by OIG1811 View Post
        TR scale? is that increase of the GS? I just Treasury 0083 (Mint and BEP) were just higher graded GS 8 or 9. I unaware DON was sending their guys to UPTP. I did see a few DoD guys at UPTP and LMPT last year, but again it was piecemeal. I heard that DOA at least standardized 0083 credentials for LEOSA off duty. I think there is even an image I saw of them at some Army Regulation on a website. I'm not sure the rest of the DOD branches have, though I know USAF has done creds for LEOSA retirees not sure if that applies to the 0083.

        We have actually had some VA Cops show up at quarterly shoot and UoF training. Their Chief is a former FAM and lets them trg quite a bit with other agencies in our area.
        The VA Police have been trying to get on the FED LE pay scale for several years (where everyone non supervisory under GS 11 is GL 6-GL10. Something the did with the other agencies about 6 years ago. I believe that is what Orlando meant (Orlando correct me if I misunderstood)

        The way the LEOSA updates from Jan 2013 read all of DOD Police are now included. They added the phrase "Authority to detain" along with the Statutory Powers of Arrest" as a either or fills the requirement. That allows DOD to fall under since that was the only thing they lacked. I am a Lead Firearms instructor for BOP and we went through similar bureaucracy as DOD is (although a lot more minor) when LEOSA became law and most everyone else became covered. The other requirement made in the 2013 update was on your agency issued ID it had to actually list "Law Enforcement Officer". Not sure why they decided on that but my suspicion was to cut the confusion for the LEO on the street when interacting with someone say that is a Nurse for BOP and is covered by LEOSA but how is that LEO to really know if they wanted to push it. We had a few cases like that in early 2005 when LEOSA was new. Now everyone has new ID cards.

        I am also retired USAF SP with the ANG and being close friends with the Superintendent (not to mention his questions on LEOSA for his folks) I have been following the DOD side as well.

        If it were myself I would go VA between the 2 of them. But whatever Federal agency is chosen most will be disappointed because none of them are that progressive/proactive or tip of the spear agencies anymore like some think.

        Good luck
        Last edited by in625shooter; 01-15-2015, 05:29 AM.

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        • #5
          The TR pay scale is the treasury pay scale. The new head of VHA police services came from Engraving and Printing and is attempting to create a VA police pay scale somewhat similar to what the US Mint Police ad BEP police have. Starting salary will be like 45k for a patrol at the GS-05 (or its equal)and top at 70k. They would also have rankings and pay grades equivalent to the corresponding grade. Such as GS-05/06 is police officer, GS-07 is a corporal etc and they would have matching salaries.

          The TR scale is a mix of an increase on the GS scale with pay banding matched in. Such as a TR-08 police officer is equivalent to a GS-07 but they salary is about 15k higher even with locality.
          I don't answer recruitment messages....

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          • #6
            Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
            The TR pay scale is the treasury pay scale. The new head of VHA police services came from Engraving and Printing and is attempting to create a VA police pay scale somewhat similar to what the US Mint Police ad BEP police have. Starting salary will be like 45k for a patrol at the GS-05 (or its equal)and top at 70k. They would also have rankings and pay grades equivalent to the corresponding grade. Such as GS-05/06 is police officer, GS-07 is a corporal etc and they would have matching salaries.

            The TR scale is a mix of an increase on the GS scale with pay banding matched in. Such as a TR-08 police officer is equivalent to a GS-07 but they salary is about 15k higher even with locality.
            Orlando, Is the TR scale have the same retirement as the Fed LE 6C age 50 with 20 or any age with 25 years or is it similar to the normal civil service where it is dependent on your birth date? And do they earn the 1.7% per year or just the 1% like the regular civil service. Just curious. I checked into the VA Police several years ago and they were talking then about getting on te 6C retirement but that was over 10 years ago so they have probably changed direction a couple times.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
              The TR pay scale is the treasury pay scale. The new head of VHA police services came from Engraving and Printing and is attempting to create a VA police pay scale somewhat similar to what the US Mint Police ad BEP police have. Starting salary will be like 45k for a patrol at the GS-05 (or its equal)and top at 70k. They would also have rankings and pay grades equivalent to the corresponding grade. Such as GS-05/06 is police officer, GS-07 is a corporal etc and they would have matching salaries.

              The TR scale is a mix of an increase on the GS scale with pay banding matched in. Such as a TR-08 police officer is equivalent to a GS-07 but they salary is about 15k higher even with locality.

              Wow, if that is the case VA Police will quite well paid! Is this for sure?
              ...and is commended as being worthy of trust and confidence

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by in625shooter View Post
                Orlando, Is the TR scale have the same retirement as the Fed LE 6C age 50 with 20 or any age with 25 years or is it similar to the normal civil service where it is dependent on your birth date? And do they earn the 1.7% per year or just the 1% like the regular civil service. Just curious. I checked into the VA Police several years ago and they were talking then about getting on te 6C retirement but that was over 10 years ago so they have probably changed direction a couple times.

                No the TR scale has nothing to do with the LE retirement.
                I don't answer recruitment messages....

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by in625shooter View Post

                  The other requirement made in the 2013 update was on your agency issued ID it had to actually list "Law Enforcement Officer".
                  That eliminates most FEDLE as almost all the creds I've seen don't say "LEO". Most if not all usually say something to the effect "is duly appointed TITLE authorized to carry firearms, execute warrants, make arrest for offenses against the USA and perform other duties as authorized by law and the attorney general"

                  Although it would be implied that person is LEO it doesn't specifically say that. Most of the PIV/CAC cards only have a "red line" indicating emergency essential.
                  ...and is commended as being worthy of trust and confidence

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by OIG1811 View Post
                    That eliminates most FEDLE as almost all the creds I've seen don't say "LEO". Most if not all usually say something to the effect "is duly appointed TITLE authorized to carry firearms, execute warrants, make arrest for offenses against the USA and perform other duties as authorized by law and the attorney general"

                    Although it would be implied that person is LEO it doesn't specifically say that. Most of the PIV/CAC cards only have a "red line" indicating emergency essential.
                    At most agencies, they have actually issued all new ID cards that say "Law Enforcement Officer" And for the ones that tried to drag or are dragging their feet AFGE (and FOP to a lesser extent) can get involved just like they did when Bureau of Prisons administration in DC drug their feet in 2004 on giving the green light. I am seeing a lot of similarities with DOD but DOD seems to be 20 times worse (and I worked for them as a civilian for a minute so i know about the 3rd class treatment of civilian employees at least in an AF Security Forces group).

                    Actually BOP gave the new ID's out pretty quick after the 2013 update.

                    Here is an AF link I posted in another thread (if it won't open here type it in your search engine) http://www.leosaonline.com/

                    I believe the requirement (or reason) they updated to have the ID to state 'LEO" was there was a lot of confusion by line cops when stopping on who could or couldn't because of a lot of agency ID cards. I know BOP had a couple minor issues when that Food Service worker or Secretary or Case manager got stopped.

                    Just like the military members are now covered while no they don't have a union to go to with an issue. Since they are covered if their command drags their feet or try's to limit who they allow any new credentials it could be interesting. I am sure some congressional representatives will get called because some where at some base someone trying to run something will try and exclude someone for some reason.
                    Last edited by in625shooter; 01-20-2015, 05:50 AM.

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                    • #11
                      In "most" agencies you DoD. I can tell you for fact no FED LE agency has issued new creds based on that revision (FBI, ATF, USMS, DEA, OIGs, DHS, CBP, USBP, ICE, DOI, and USFS) None of there credentials say "law enforcement officer". I was at lunch with at 3 of the agencies today and there is nothing on changing creds. CBP and ICE are the only ones eligible for union as all the rest can't be union members.
                      ...and is commended as being worthy of trust and confidence

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by OIG1811 View Post
                        In "most" agencies you DoD. I can tell you for fact no FED LE agency has issued new creds based on that revision (FBI, ATF, USMS, DEA, OIGs, DHS, CBP, USBP, ICE, DOI, and USFS) None of there credentials say "law enforcement officer". I was at lunch with at 3 of the agencies today and there is nothing on changing creds. CBP and ICE are the only ones eligible for union as all the rest can't be union members.
                        BOP use to issue the creds that said LEO for retired staff only and they changed that to everyone about 2 years ago right when the 2013 update took place. Can't speak for the other agencies but when I get my Lead Firearms re certified every 3 years LEOSA (as well as agency specific other legal stuff) is a topic with Agency attorneys coming in. They addressed that the 2013 updates required the LEO statement on the creds. Common sense should prevail when a local is dealing with a ATF, ICE etc etc But I could see the confusion with BOP since there are several staff that one does not associate with a LE role like Psychologist, Secretary etc. That are still covered because they have to be qualified to do any Correctional officer duty and including armed posts and everyone with the exclusion of Public Health service have the STA.

                        I'm just glad they expanded it to DOD just still amazed that such a simple bill has caused SO MUCH confusion.

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                        • #13
                          Currently employed with DOD in the MCCLEP, which generally has the "worst" feedback from its employees. As with all Federal Series 0083 positions, I feel that you must expect that youre duties will be almost unilateral. As in, on one hand you will perform traditional law enforcement duties (within a limited scope of authority), yet simultaneously be performing a very force protection oriented mission. Personally, its difficult to compare 0083 positions to localized departments due to the severe disparity between the two.

                          DOD is a relatively new concept on the large scale involving 0083's and as such has alot of room for improvement that is a slow methodical moving machine with endless layers of bureaucracy. However, I do feel that it will reach certain goals. The momentum of LEOSA and various installations developing MOU's with deputized arrest authority through Attorney Generals is becoming more apparent. (i.e think LA AFB). A great example of the "potential" within DOD and perhaps VA.

                          From my understanding the Statutory Authority vested in VA Police is certainly an advantage, but again is "Limited" Authority and since the federal properties they enforce are generally smaller then DOD installations they perform an even more Force Protection oriented mission.

                          Ultimately, it boils down to what the individual wants to do. I would simply say that, on the DOD side the Law Enforcement mindset will be instilled by the Command Authority of a heavily populated military community who will insist on utilizing the UCMJ vs Federal Enforcement (Heavily lean towards turning civilian offenders over to civil authority). From professional acquaintances on the VA side I hear the same thing, that many Hospital directors want the VA Officers to see if local authorities will make the arrest rather then cite under federal law. I have also heard the same from buddy is CBPO which has to request if the SAUSA will prosecute before finalizing an arrest.

                          So at the end of the day: Federal law enforcement on the uniformed side is consistently limited in my opinion and its what you make of it.

                          I also wont deny that DOD has a tendency to "micro manage" its officers in the performance of duties. They also have an issue with following written policies when military command structure changes and the mindset alters. I imagine VA varies depending on location as well.

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                          • #14
                            I work at a large 1A VA hospital and they start out as GS-05 and the GS-6 are made SGT due to union gripes and the GS-07 are Lt's. And every other dept pays almost double so young guys are here for a few months or till the day after they return from Little Rock than bounce.
                            Last edited by usmc3816; 03-19-2015, 08:22 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by usmc3816 View Post
                              I work at a large 1A VA hospital as a 0083 and there is no good pay scale. A GS 5/5 makes the same as anywhere else minus the locality pay. We still go to court in uniform without a weapon. They still try to Jedi mind trick to not carrying you own weapon off duty or taking ur creds home with you. Of course with the 90 day till the mandatory preschool Fletc they want you to attend as no waivers are issued for past LE work But that 90 days turn in to 6-9 months on average for everyone. So soon as they return certified they leave within a month or two. And of course the lead management is in that 0083 non police just armed security yes men attitude. Is there any Va hospitals where they are actually allowed to be police.
                              What state is this large VA hospital located in? Ive heard mixed statements regarding the VA. Some good and some bad, mostly depending on the upper echelon LE management. I know they have still denied you guys tasers if im not mistaken and have seen increasing on duty shootings at VA property. Any insight?

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