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Authority and Jurisdiction.... HELP!!

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  • Authority and Jurisdiction.... HELP!!

    Alright as some of you may know I recently got out of active duty in the Navy where I was a MA. I picked up a gig in a ... well lets say a unique installation. I am currently a Sgt. as an 0085 in a DES of 0083s and 0085s where as an 0085 I have 0083s as my subordinates (lose you yet?). Now, this installation has gone from leased private property to a brand new facility on federal property. One would assume we would have exclusive jurisdiction, however the Garrison manager has organized agreements with the local PD to respond to EVERYTHING.

    Now let me back track to my previous department in the Navy. We had exclusive jurisdiction and proprietary jurisdiction. As a patrolman I was used to responding to anything and executing all acts under exclusive jurisdiction to include personnel outside of the fenceline on CITY property that were taking pictures of the base or were trying to jump the fence into the installation (NAPS kids did it all the time). Back to the pictures (since this is 1 of the key points to my current situation) I was authorized to take the camera delete any pictures, take down all information from the individual to include vehicle if there was one and pass that down to NCIS for further investigation.

    Now at my current job, we are not allowed to do this. If an individual/s is doing something suspicious outside of the fenceline we do nothing but "attempt" to get tag info from within the fenceline and forward it to the local PD. We are told we have NO authority or ability to question anyone outside of the fenceline. This goes completely contrary to what I was taught and did at my previous location.

    They keep telling us there is no law enforcement mission, (yet we have 0083s, which they are trying to force convert to 0085). However even with a strictly force protection mission, I would assume we have the authority to question individuals to gather the right information to pass to a investigative agency.

    The installation is currently under inspection by IMCOM and the DIA. These inspections have found numerous short falls with our program to include training. Now it appears that we are racing to make ourselves look better and they are jamming all sorts of "Police" training down the throats of Guards (including the 0083s that they consider Guards) USAMPS Executive Summary states that the training between Guards and Police is vastly different and should not be the same to include that Guards do not operate in the same high liability areas as Police. Yet we are now getting Active Shooter training, taser training (we will soon be armed with tasers), Sniper fire training, Bomb Threat training, ect... (mind you while well intentioned the training is subpar due to lack of qualified trainers, experience, and resources).

    The next set of training (we do this weekly now) is Authority and Jurisdiction, which will be taught by our garrison lawyer. I plan on hammering this guy with so many questions I may get fired!!! What sources besides the 190-56 and UCMJ can I use to support my arguement that we have more authority and jurisdiction than this guy (to include the garrison manager) is making it seem we have? Any and all info would be extremely helpful. We ( DES employees) are trying to push for a law enforcement mission and conversion of all 0085s to 0083s. Or least, have the tools to do our job completely and accurately and not the soup sandwich we have going on.

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by DirtSailor; 03-09-2011, 11:01 AM.

  • #2
    If you wanna be a cop, be a cop. This is why agencies still send military police guys of all branches through an academy. The MP training is a sick joke.

    to help you out...grab a Title 18 USC, UCMJ, whatever relevant policies you guys have been issued and the penal code for your state. not a clue what 0083 or 0085 is so i really cant do much for ya. I was an MP for 6 of my years in the army, dont know how relevant that would be to what youre doing now. im assuming youre a security guard on an installation?
    Last edited by LaPlaca; 03-09-2011, 11:08 AM.
    Originally posted by crass cop
    Just do it in front of a camera and try not to get a boner and you shoudl be fine.

    Comment


    • #3
      I was an MA Navys version of an MP. Currently an Army Guard (0085) Sgt. No don't want to be a "cop" (0083 or street).... just using this place as a spring board, but this place needs drastic improvement and I would like to contribute to it before I pick up a better gig (USBP, FAMS, ICE, whatever). I like leaving places better than when I got there, so I'm looking for specifics to hammer the garrison lawyer with when he's teaching our class, if it's even just getting these guys the proper authority to correctly do their job as Guards then I'm happy.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DirtSailor View Post
        ..... to include personnel outside of the fenceline on CITY property that were taking pictures of the base or were trying to jump the fence into the installation (NAPS kids did it all the time). Back to the pictures (since this is 1 of the key points to my current situation) I was authorized to take the camera delete any pictures, take down all information from the individual to include vehicle if there was one and pass that down to NCIS for further investigation.

        Now at my current job, we are not allowed to do this. If an individual/s is doing something suspicious outside of the fenceline we do nothing but "attempt" to get tag info from within the fenceline and forward it to the local PD. We are told we have NO authority or ability to question anyone outside of the fenceline. This goes completely contrary to what I was taught and did at my previous location.
        I don't know who gave you the authority to take a camera and delete pictures if the individual was not on the reservation, but whoever did was wrong!!

        Try doing that to me and I will own you $$$, and receive a settlement $$$ from the government. Better read some case law! Uncle Sam recently paid off on a similar case!

        It appears that what you have currently been told is absolutely correct.

        As someone else said, if you want to play real police, apply to a real police department!!

        /s/ Grumpy
        "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm" -George Orwell

        "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing diapers." - Blues Brothers

        Comment


        • #5
          WOW where to begin, first off no offence but a guard supervising a cop is a no go, no it is not written anywhere as near as I can tell, but common sense should have told someone somewhere it was and is going to lead to bad things. Once again not a ding on you, it was the job you walked into.
          Concurrent, proprietary or exclusive don’t matter if the boss at the top says you aren’t going to do squat, well you aren’t goanna do squat.

          Once again don’t get in a bind with that, if that’s what the boss at the top wants, then be a good witness, and then let him figure out how to answer the questions when things get bad. I know, I know I was in the same boat a few years ago, it sucks but that’s the way it is.

          Once again you may legally have all the authority in the world, but if the boss at the top sates NO, then NO means NO. Same thing at my previous job sucks to all ends but it is what it is.

          Aside from the lack of training, and now the cram session, the training you are getting is not a bad idea, we have a few Police on the road working at any time, our back up IS the guard force, SO, yes I want them to have an idea of active shooter, Bomb threat and all the other stuff you described. Traffic stops, process a DUI crap like that no, you do not need waste of time.

          I hate to say this, but work within the rules that are set forth at you instillation, and don’t concern yourself with the silly crap, you are going to lose sleep, and stress out over something you cannot control. As I stated earlier I have been in the situation you are describing, sucks, big time, but not much you can do as the changes you want take time, a long time, and it is a hard road.
          It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.

          Comment


          • #6
            In all respect.. Your facility is attempting to do away with the 0083's because they dont want to pay...
            I don't answer recruitment messages....

            Comment


            • #7
              Dude you're not offending no 1 lol... I've been telling these people from the get that an 0085 over an 0083 is some **** I have never before in my life seen.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
                In all respect.. Your facility is attempting to do away with the 0083's because they dont want to pay...

                Yeah we know that....that's straight from IMCOM...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by grumpyirishman View Post
                  I don't know who gave you the authority to take a camera and delete pictures if the individual was not on the reservation, but whoever did was wrong!!

                  Try doing that to me and I will own you $$$, and receive a settlement $$$ from the government. Better read some case law! Uncle Sam recently paid off on a similar case!

                  It appears that what you have currently been told is absolutely correct.

                  As someone else said, if you want to play real police, apply to a real police department!!

                  /s/ Grumpy
                  So pictures of an entry control point, naval warships, and buildings critical to national security should be left in someone's camera?


                  We were told by NCIS, our security director, and the base commander.

                  I already stated I have no interest in being a cop not a 0083 or a street cop. So repeating what someone else said in a smart *** manner is counter productive.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DirtSailor View Post
                    So pictures of an entry control point, naval warships, and buildings critical to national security should be left in someone's camera?


                    We were told by NCIS, our security director, and the base commander.

                    I already stated I have no interest in being a cop not a 0083 or a street cop. So repeating what someone else said in a smart *** manner is counter productive.
                    How are pictures of ships or EPC'c or buildings at that a threat to national security when any "joe" can pull it up on google maps. Now one thing I see where you may run into a problem is actually deleting the pictures when you don'ty have any "authority". Is there an actual base policy on this? 0083's yes I believe they can at certain installations, however it has to be posted on that base, usually, that you cannot take pictures. But taking a picture of a ship, that will eventually be cruising out to sea for everyone to snap pics at as well...i don't get why you would delete them.

                    Second, yeah you can pound sand if you are teliing or being told how to run a 0083 around...SGT or not. You work for them and or your authority is very limited. Some bases, utilize their 0085's to conduct buliding checks, etc, however if they find an open door, they have to call the 0083 POLICE to conduct the building check.
                    "An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi,

                      Do a search for "authority and jurisdiction" on the Mil LE board. I started a thread awhile back when I felt like you did. Now I just sit back, document everything, procure liability insurance (fedsprotection, or FOP) and wait until the day comes when the inquisition comes to town. The authority for Mil LE is very well described in "U.S vs Eugene Banks". Ironicly, the military will publish in it's journals that we have "arrest authority", but when it comes to off-duty carry, or......enforceing the law.. Sorry no juice! Look up a publication from OPMG called "authority at the gates" or some such. Just look up my thread, it's all there,

                      Good luck!
                      The post above does not constitute legal advice, nor should be construed as such. These are the private opinions of a private citizen and do not represent the opinion nor official capacity of any law enforcement agency.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Correction, it's titled "Military Law Enforcement Authority".

                        http://forums.officer.com/forums/sho...d+Jurisdiction
                        Last edited by ops; 03-09-2011, 05:25 PM.
                        The post above does not constitute legal advice, nor should be construed as such. These are the private opinions of a private citizen and do not represent the opinion nor official capacity of any law enforcement agency.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by irishlad2nv View Post
                          How are pictures of ships or EPC'c or buildings at that a threat to national security when any "joe" can pull it up on google maps. Now one thing I see where you may run into a problem is actually deleting the pictures when you don'ty have any "authority". Is there an actual base policy on this? 0083's yes I believe they can at certain installations, however it has to be posted on that base, usually, that you cannot take pictures. But taking a picture of a ship, that will eventually be cruising out to sea for everyone to snap pics at as well...i don't get why you would delete them.

                          Second, yeah you can pound sand if you are teliing or being told how to run a 0083 around...SGT or not. You work for them and or your authority is very limited. Some bases, utilize their 0085's to conduct buliding checks, etc, however if they find an open door, they have to call the 0083 POLICE to conduct the building check.
                          How is it an airfield can be pulled up on google earth, yet try and take a picture of an airfield at a base and see what the response is? The same applies to a pier when a warship is docked at it. Pictures of ECPs? Really? Don't see a problem with that?

                          You seem to be confusing my previous base and my current location. I was an MA in the Navy at a Naval Station where I worked along side 0083s, yes it was base policy to not photograph what was deemed by the CO restricted or sensitive areas. We would detain personnel with pictures of said areas, take possession of the camera, notify NCIS and NCIS would go from there, the vast majority of time it resulted with deletion of the pictures.

                          Now my current place of employment, (where we and by we I mean 0085 and 0083 have NO authority to do ANYTHING) there are 0085s (including myself) in supervisory positions OVER 0083s. I don't agree with this (as an MA I would tell an 0085 or contract guard to pound sand as you put it if they tried ordering me around), but yes I tell 0083s here what to do. Because the garrison does not consider them to be cops and according to IMCOM they are "security guards in a police officer's costume". Like I said this is a very unique place. I have never seen anything like this in my entire military enlistment. The 0083s here have been trying to fight a force conversion to 0085. And the 0085s (some who used to be 0083 and others that young kids trying to "play real cop" as previously stated above) are attempting to get the brass to see the soup sandwich they have going on here is screwed and bring about some much needed changes. IMCOM doesn't want it, garrison doesn't seem to care, and the only thing this place has going for them is a 4 Star that gets it and is trying to improve things but since it's not his garrison there's not much he can do when IMCOM doesn't want to fund a damn thing.

                          My situation is this, I know there is more that we CAN do but are not being allowed to, and while I have the garrison lawyer teaching MY shift about our authority and jurisdiction, I want to bring up these issues. Which is why I stated outside of the AR-190-56 and the UCMJ where else can I find in stone certain policies regarding authority and jurisdiction. I am much more familiar with Navy regulations than Army so I am seeking assistance. I don't plan on staying at this place as a career however I would like to see this place move in the right direction before I do take off.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ops View Post
                            Hi,

                            Do a search for "authority and jurisdiction" on the Mil LE board. I started a thread awhile back when I felt like you did. Now I just sit back, document everything, procure liability insurance (fedsprotection, or FOP) and wait until the day comes when the inquisition comes to town. The authority for Mil LE is very well described in "U.S vs Eugene Banks". Ironicly, the military will publish in it's journals that we have "arrest authority", but when it comes to off-duty carry, or......enforceing the law.. Sorry no juice! Look up a publication from OPMG called "authority at the gates" or some such. Just look up my thread, it's all there,

                            Good luck!
                            Thanks!! I think the begining of the inquisition is starting here. Between IMCOM trying to justify their choice of down grading 0083s to 0085s and taking away what is commonly refered to here as "the law enforcement mission" and a DIA assessment team brought in by some top brass to counter IMCOM, there's alot going on, I just want to try to take the chance while all this is happening to get some changes made for the better.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ops View Post
                              Hi,
                              Was wondering if you were still around, I take it from your post things have not improved much over there?
                              It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.

                              Comment

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