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  • 93formulalt1
    replied
    Originally posted by statebear View Post
    That's truly a sad state of affairs......

    What liability would they incur?

    The fact that they survived the firefight if they are indeed shot......
    I would have to agree. Here's my thought, however. . .

    If you are issued a vest, wear what's issued. I have been issued one by my company, the manufacture date is 06/2001. I have been tempted to purchase my own vest, but the liability being dumped on me is definitely not something I could handle. If the Army told me that because I was wearing a non-issued, unauthorized vest, and I got shot, that they wouldn't pay the medical bills associated, I would lose it. I'm probably going to purchase my own vest, because I think the ones we have are only Level II, and they are definitely "broken in". That, and the fact that, as mentioned above, it could mean the difference between an overnight hospital stay and weeks of recovery. . . Or worse. I'd rather be safe than sorry (or dead).

    If your unit does not issue you a vest, get one of your own ASAP! It's better to be given an Article 15 for using unauthorized equipment (or some other BS punitive action) than have your family crying over your casket. I'd rather give my mother a framed copy of my first Article 15 than have a complete stranger give her a neatly folded American flag. If I'm going to die doing this job, it's going to be defending my country on the battlefield, not trying to stop an armed robber on a base in the states.

    Don't let your leadership set you up for failure. They are obligated to provide you with the tools you need to successfully perform your job. They give you everything else you need, don't let them short-change you. If they don't issue vests, go through your chain of command and *tactfully* recommend that they look into it. It shouldn't be hard to convince them to do it, especially considering what happened at Fort Hood.

    Stay safe out there.

    Leave a comment:


  • DACP
    replied
    Originally posted by smk99 View Post
    While I agree that no one should work without a vest, there is an issue of liability. When you have worked for the Federal Government as long as I have, you come to find that if you wear something that was not issued or approved and are injured, you would be far better off not having worn said item.

    The DON fellas here are rightfully concerned that if they were to purchase a vest on their own and god forbid engage in a firefight, any liability would be placed on them as a result. While this might sound extreme I would caution that you must understand the Department of Labor and its refusal to admit that another Federal agency could ever make a mistake.
    Unfortunately this is so very true.

    Leave a comment:


  • statebear
    replied
    Originally posted by smk99 View Post
    While I agree that no one should work without a vest, there is an issue of liability. When you have worked for the Federal Government as long as I have, you come to find that if you wear something that was not issued or approved and are injured, you would be far better off not having worn said item.

    The DON fellas here are rightfully concerned that if they were to purchase a vest on their own and god forbid engage in a firefight, any liability would be placed on them as a result. While this might sound extreme I would caution that you must understand the Department of Labor and its refusal to admit that another Federal agency could ever make a mistake.
    That's truly a sad state of affairs......

    What liability would they incur?

    The fact that they survived the firefight if they are indeed shot......

    Leave a comment:


  • orlandofed5-0
    replied
    Originally posted by smk99 View Post
    Take a tour though the FLRA and MSRB and other records and you will see that CNRMA is always paying for mistakes, yet they never learn. When I was helping the DON union last year they lost two cases alone that added to some big bucks for the folks involved.

    The mismanagement at CNRMA makes the small issues I have with my agency look like rain drops on the Atlantic.
    I believe it. I have heard from the folks in Philly how bad they have become.

    Leave a comment:


  • smk99
    replied
    Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
    A big lawsuit once someone is shot will remind them when they have to pay!
    Take a tour though the FLRA and MSRB and other records and you will see that CNRMA is always paying for mistakes, yet they never learn. When I was helping the DON union last year they lost two cases alone that added to some big bucks for the folks involved.

    The mismanagement at CNRMA makes the small issues I have with my agency look like rain drops on the Atlantic.

    Leave a comment:


  • smk99
    replied
    Originally posted by statebear View Post
    For you guys who aren’t issued a vest by your Fed Depts. and don't want to or can't spend the dough to buy one for yourself, check with your local State, County or City Depts. My agency buys us new vest every 5 years, just got a new one a few weeks ago. My agency does not want or require us to turn in our old ones. I ended up giving mine to my 11 year old son. He wears it around the house along with his toy police gear....

    You may have agencies in your area were LEOs are allowed to keep their old vests. I would have gladly given my old vest to a fellow LEO. Like others have said, an old vest is better then none……

    No LEO should have to work without a vest!
    While I agree that no one should work without a vest, there is an issue of liability. When you have worked for the Federal Government as long as I have, you come to find that if you wear something that was not issued or approved and are injured, you would be far better off not having worn said item.

    The DON fellas here are rightfully concerned that if they were to purchase a vest on their own and god forbid engage in a firefight, any liability would be placed on them as a result. While this might sound extreme I would caution that you must understand the Department of Labor and its refusal to admit that another Federal agency could ever make a mistake.

    Leave a comment:


  • BCSD Frank
    replied
    The city police turned in their "expired" vests to the local EMA Office. They have allowed the Reserve Deputies (and anyone else in law enforcement) that wants to use them to sign for them, along with a statement acknowledging that yes, we are aware that the vests are "expired."

    Leave a comment:


  • statebear
    replied
    For you guys who aren’t issued a vest by your Fed Depts. and don't want to or can't spend the dough to buy one for yourself, check with your local State, County or City Depts. My agency buys us new vest every 5 years, just got a new one a few weeks ago. My agency does not want or require us to turn in our old ones. I ended up giving mine to my 11 year old son. He wears it around the house along with his toy police gear....

    You may have agencies in your area were LEOs are allowed to keep their old vests. I would have gladly given my old vest to a fellow LEO. Like others have said, an old vest is better then none……

    No LEO should have to work without a vest!

    Leave a comment:


  • orlandofed5-0
    replied
    Originally posted by smk99 View Post
    No argument there mate, as myself and rube would attest to. Its a real shame what the folks in CNIC and CNRMA have allowed the DON police in Hampton Roads become.

    I hate thinking bad thoughts, but I know a day will come when some DON will have to pay in blood for all the mismanagement that the Navy allows.
    A big lawsuit once someone is shot will remind them when they have to pay!

    Leave a comment:


  • smk99
    replied
    Originally posted by elko View Post
    That's because it's not a Police Dept. Navy officials have gone to to great lengths to ensure that it remains nothing more than a 2nd rate security operation.
    No argument there mate, as myself and rube would attest to. Its a real shame what the folks in CNIC and CNRMA have allowed the DON police in Hampton Roads become.

    I hate thinking bad thoughts, but I know a day will come when some DON will have to pay in blood for all the mismanagement that the Navy allows.

    Leave a comment:


  • elko
    replied
    Originally posted by smk99 View Post
    I can name you many an military department that does not issue, or require the wearing of ballistic vests by its members. I recall this being a large issue with the CNRMA and CNRSW officers in the IBPO contract negotiations. The position of the Navy management was "We will let you know when you need a vest, what level (they only wanted to issue level II vests) and when they need to be replaced."

    Needless to say I was shocked to hear that from any manager in a police department.

    That's because it's not a Police Dept. Navy officials have gone to to great lengths to ensure that it remains nothing more than a 2nd rate security operation.

    Leave a comment:


  • ccthompsfs
    replied
    I wear my vest, every day I am at work, Except for blues Mon that blows. But I wear it constantly and have had to replace the carrier a couple of times.

    Leave a comment:


  • Floyd_jones
    replied
    Man, we are spoiled just got new vests cause the old ones "were not comfortable" gotta love the AF and it's spoiledness

    Leave a comment:


  • BCSD Frank
    replied
    Originally posted by MPDCjock View Post
    I always wear mine but I work with a few officers that don't.
    Ditto. It doesn't really bother me... It's their ***, their choice. If the SHTF, my vest may not protect me. Then again, it just might. I've worn it so much, that it no longer bothers me. It's mildly uncomfortable at times, and getting an itch underneath it really sucks, and it's hot as hell in the summer, but for all the so-called cons, I'd much rather wear it than not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Phil Dodson
    replied
    Not true! Ft. Lewis, Wa. issued them to us in the early 80s. They were even replacing them when wear out dates took effect on the issued ones. I was involved in a shooting incident in October of 1983 at the old Madigan Club. Shortly after the incident is when they began purchasing the first vests to patrols, K-9 and traffic sections.

    Leave a comment:

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