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DOA Police, NY Statute, and HR 218

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  • DOA Police, NY Statute, and HR 218

    I realize that the topic of "DOD" police with regard to HR 218 is a sensitive issue for some, but here I go anyway...

    I noticed today that the NYS Criminal Procedure Law has recently been amended to include "Department of the Army special agents, detectives and police officers" among those federal officers granted peace officer status (CPL 2.15-26) and thus giving them statutory arrest powers and the authority to carry a firearm (both on and off duty) in New York State. My question is, does this have any implications with regard to HR 218?

    As far as I can tell, HR 218 only requires that an officer have statutory arrest authority. It does not say that the statute from which this authority is derived must be from the the same level of government in which the officer is employed. Therefore, a state statute appears to be sufficient even for a federal officer, and HR 218 would seem to apply to Army Police officers in the state of New York.

    Now let's take this one step further. The NY statute includes no language limiting this authority to DOA officers based in NY. To anyone familiar with how NYS law is usually worded, this would mean that any DOA officer, even if based in California for example, would have these powers should they happen to find themselves in NY. Therefore, one could argue that all DOA officers are now covered by HR 218.

    Any thoughts on this?

    BTW, I have no stake in this argument as I already work an HR 218 covered state job. I just thought it was interesting.

  • #2
    The agency can still restrict by policy the carrying of government weapons. More than likely, they would need to apply for a carry permit either through the NYPD (for the Ft. Hamilton guys) or through whatever county Ft. Drum is in.
    I don't answer recruitment messages....

    Comment


    • #3
      When I was keeping up with NYS CPL, it was 2.10, and it was very specific, so read how it is worded, it either says, Police Officers from the Dept. of the Army are Peace Officers, which means they can carry, or it says "Police Officers from the DOA, HOWEVER, NOTHING IN THS SECTION SHALL BE CONSTRUED AS AUTHORIZING THEM TO CARRY A FIREARM UNLESS A PERMIT HAS BEEN ISSUED UNDER ARTICLE xxx OF THE NYS PENAL LAW.

      The otherthing is your agency can restrict you from carrying, by their dept. policy, so you might be ok but get administratively jammed later.


      If you really want a DEFINITE answer, get an attorenys opinion, and before you leave, ask them to provide you a letter in writing saying, if you get jammed they will defend you "pro-bono".

      Comment


      • #4
        Here's the deal since I used to work up at Drum and for the guy who wrote that bill for us.

        It does not cover you under HR218. Drum's policy is that you are not allowed to carry off duty on your badge. It took a couple flaming retards to get that thrown out. One, tried to get on a plane with it and the other was flashing it around at a bar.

        Also, the state law really means nothing because the Army is not gonna cover you in your off time, if you make a "citizens arrest" of some ******bag on the street for whatever crime.

        NYS also has about 6 million different "peace officers" so all thats saying is that they recognize that you wear a uniform and work in a certain type of capacity. The reason why we were never put under "police officers" is because we were federal. We fell under the same category as FBI, ATF, CBP, DEA, and all the other alphabet agencies, and within the penal law we were considered "peace officers." There is a difference. Its just the way NY has it set up. And NYSPL means nothing because inside or outside the gate.

        You wanna carry off duty, get a ccw and if something happens, you are acting as a private citizen.

        The NYSP superintendent said, "we cant stop you from carrying, but we dont want you purchasing on your badges." I guess it was their way to try and continue to regulate the firearm purchasing processes and registration. So, from, the horses mouth, according them, they wouldn't hem us up if you were in possession of a firearm out in town. The Drum leadership on the other hand is still living in the 70's, where MP's drove jeeps, wore chrome helmets, had a big whoopie light and a hand crank siren. Until a certain person retires, thats the way its gonna be, not to mention the complete idiots that they tend to hire and give a uniform to.

        Bottom line, they will not give you a letter to purchase or allow you to carry. The NYSPL means nothing because they're employees of the federal gov't. NYS can call you whatever they want. They dont sign your paycheck or issue you your authority. Your authority comes from the Army, and eventually Department of Defense but ends at the gate.


        Off topic here but when I was working up there as a shift supervisor, we had an armed burglary at a gas station at an intersection which the north side of the road was ours and the south side was the county's. We had 2 units sitting there watching this burglary happen in real time. The county called our dispatch and asked if we could respond that there were no deputies remotely close. Naturally, we couldnt do anything without calling all the way up the chain...And the answer was no, you will not respond to assist that agency. As you an imagine how the county guys looked at us after that.

        Until DoD agencies for all branches actually get some type of 'authority', nothing will change. And this reminds me again of why I left to bigger and better things.
        Last edited by Unit453; 10-22-2009, 01:20 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Unit, you break it down so good, I am so glad I just want my pay check at the end of the day, and not some glory hound....haha Makes me feel like a overpaid mall cop with a fancy dingy...hahah Mall of America, pays like 14hr to start wooohoo

          Comment


          • #6
            O.K. I understand all that, but ultimately, if you are a NYS Peace Officer, and the CPL does not say you need a permit to carry, you are authorized under NYS law to carry, whether or not the Army "wants " you to. What I'm getting at is this, recently a USCG "boarding Petty Officer", who really has very little authority off duty, was cleared of firearms charges, because according to a NYS judges interpretation of HR 218, the Coastie, had authority to "make Arrests", and therefor was EXEMPT under the LEOSA.

            So I think the answer is, you would be covered under NYS law, but the Army would not back or indemnify you if it went bad. Also, NYSP Super, not wanting you to buy on your badge is an internal control thing, any tom dick or harry can get a NYS Range or residence permit, outside NYC, and buy a gun. What you do with it after that is your own business. Tons of DOD cops turn in their issue weapons at the end of shift, only to put their personal weapon in a holster off-duty.

            I'm not advocating breaking any laws, but just becasue the Army does not want you to carry, does not mean you do not have authority under LEOSA.

            If you could post the NYS CPL, the bottom line (used to be) that if you were a federal officer/agent acting off-duy, in good faith, and something went wrong, NYS, would indemnifyyou and you were covered for the actions you took. Prior to HR-218 and he LEOSA, our agency only authorized us in wrting to carry in NYC, Long Isand, and like Westchester and Rockland Co, not upstate, that did not stop almost all the officers in NYFO from carrying in Albany, way, way, way, upstate, and why did they not get jammed up ?... Because under NYS CPL, they were Peace Officers. Thats not to say that the Dept. couldn't hem you up if they found out and wanted to, but as you said....


            Dont try to take it on an Airplane, and dont wave the thing in a bar, and you will be OK...


            I'm off now, going to lookup NYS CPL and try to post it is possible.
            Last edited by 2971511; 10-22-2009, 08:38 PM. Reason: ty

            Comment


            • #7
              I think this was a NJ case, but of course you do not want to be wrong, because look what happened to this poor guy, basically same scenrio, a Federal CO thought he could carry, got arrested and charged. This was pre-LEOSA FYI.


              http://books.google.com/books?id=2ip...ficers&f=false

              Comment


              • #8
                According to this, DOD Agents do have Peae Officer Status, but nothing about DOA Police,also under NYS Army AG bases officers also do not, I guess you are out of luck, sorry.

                § 2.15 Federal law enforcement officers; powers.
                The following federal law enforcement officers shall have the powers
                set forth in paragraphs (a) (with the exception of the powers provided
                by paragraph (b) of subdivision one and paragraph (b) of subdivision
                three of section 140.25 of this chapter), (b), (c) and (h) of
                subdivision one of section 2.20 of this article:
                1. Federal Bureau of Investigation special agents.
                2. United States Secret Service special agents.
                3. Immigration and Naturalization Service immigration inspectors,
                special agents, patrol officers and deportation officers.
                4. United States Marshals and Marshals Service deputies.
                5. Drug Enforcement Administration special agents.
                6. Federal Protective Officers.
                7. United States Customs Service special agents, inspectors and patrol
                officers.
                8. United States Postal Service police officers and inspectors.
                9. United States park police; provided, however that, notwithstanding
                any provision of this section to the contrary, such park police shall
                also have the powers set forth in paragraph (b) of subdivision one of
                section 140.25 of this chapter and the powers set forth in paragraphs
                (d), (e) and (g) of subdivision one of section 2.20 of this article.
                10. United States probation officers.
                11. United States General Services Administration special agents.
                12. United States Department of Agriculture special agents.
                13. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms special agents.
                14. Internal Revenue Service special agents and inspectors.
                15. Officers of the United States bureau of prisons.
                16. United States Fish and Wildlife special agents.
                17. United States Naval Investigative Service special agents.
                18. United States Department of State special agents.
                19. Special agents of the defense criminal investigative service of
                the United States department of defense.
                20. United States Department of Commerce, Office of Export
                Enforcement, special agents.
                21. United States Department of Veterans Administration police
                officers employed at the Veterans Administration Medical Center in
                Batavia.
                22. Federal Reserve law enforcement officers.
                23. Federal air marshal program special agents.
                * 24. United States department of transportation federal police
                officers and police supervisors assigned to the United States Merchant
                Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York; provided, however that,
                notwithstanding any provision of this section to the contrary, such
                police shall also have the powers set forth in paragraph (b) of
                subdivision one of section 140.25 of this chapter and the powers set
                forth in paragraphs (d), (e) and (g) of subdivision one of section 2.20
                of this article when acting pursuant to their special duties within the
                geographical area of their employment or within one hundred yards of
                such geographical area.
                * NB There are 2 sb 24's
                * 24. United States Coast Guard Investigative Service special agents.
                * NB There are 2 sb 24's
                25. United States Department of Commerce, special agents and
                enforcement officers of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric
                Administration's Fisheries Office for Law Enforcement.


                Last modified: July 30, 2006




                Supreme Court Cases | Justia Law Firm Web Design

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 2971511 View Post
                  According to this, DOD Agents do have Peae Officer Status, but nothing about DOA Police,also under NYS Army AG bases officers also do not, I guess you are out of luck, sorry.

                  § 2.15 Federal law enforcement officers; powers.
                  The following federal law enforcement officers shall have the powers
                  set forth in paragraphs (a) (with the exception of the powers provided
                  by paragraph (b) of subdivision one and paragraph (b) of subdivision
                  three of section 140.25 of this chapter), (b), (c) and (h) of
                  subdivision one of section 2.20 of this article:
                  1. Federal Bureau of Investigation special agents.
                  2. United States Secret Service special agents.
                  3. Immigration and Naturalization Service immigration inspectors,
                  special agents, patrol officers and deportation officers.
                  4. United States Marshals and Marshals Service deputies.
                  5. Drug Enforcement Administration special agents.
                  6. Federal Protective Officers.
                  7. United States Customs Service special agents, inspectors and patrol
                  officers.
                  8. United States Postal Service police officers and inspectors.
                  9. United States park police; provided, however that, notwithstanding
                  any provision of this section to the contrary, such park police shall
                  also have the powers set forth in paragraph (b) of subdivision one of
                  section 140.25 of this chapter and the powers set forth in paragraphs
                  (d), (e) and (g) of subdivision one of section 2.20 of this article.
                  10. United States probation officers.
                  11. United States General Services Administration special agents.
                  12. United States Department of Agriculture special agents.
                  13. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms special agents.
                  14. Internal Revenue Service special agents and inspectors.
                  15. Officers of the United States bureau of prisons.
                  16. United States Fish and Wildlife special agents.
                  17. United States Naval Investigative Service special agents.
                  18. United States Department of State special agents.
                  19. Special agents of the defense criminal investigative service of
                  the United States department of defense.
                  20. United States Department of Commerce, Office of Export
                  Enforcement, special agents.
                  21. United States Department of Veterans Administration police
                  officers employed at the Veterans Administration Medical Center in
                  Batavia.
                  22. Federal Reserve law enforcement officers.
                  23. Federal air marshal program special agents.
                  * 24. United States department of transportation federal police
                  officers and police supervisors assigned to the United States Merchant
                  Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York; provided, however that,
                  notwithstanding any provision of this section to the contrary, such
                  police shall also have the powers set forth in paragraph (b) of
                  subdivision one of section 140.25 of this chapter and the powers set
                  forth in paragraphs (d), (e) and (g) of subdivision one of section 2.20
                  of this article when acting pursuant to their special duties within the
                  geographical area of their employment or within one hundred yards of
                  such geographical area.
                  * NB There are 2 sb 24's
                  * 24. United States Coast Guard Investigative Service special agents.
                  * NB There are 2 sb 24's
                  25. United States Department of Commerce, special agents and
                  enforcement officers of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric
                  Administration's Fisheries Office for Law Enforcement.


                  Last modified: July 30, 2006




                  Supreme Court Cases | Justia Law Firm Web Design
                  This is outdated. The new statute reads:

                  § 2.15 Federal law enforcement officers; powers.
                  The following federal law enforcement officers shall have the
                  powers
                  set forth in paragraphs (a) (with the exception of the powers
                  provided
                  by paragraph (b) of subdivision one and paragraph (b) of
                  subdivision
                  three of section 140.25 of this chapter), (b), (c) and (h)
                  of
                  subdivision one of section 2.20 of this article:
                  1. Federal Bureau of Investigation special agents.
                  2. United States Secret Service special agents.
                  3. Immigration and Naturalization Service immigration
                  inspectors,
                  special agents, patrol officers and deportation officers.
                  4. United States Marshals and Marshals Service deputies.
                  5. Drug Enforcement Administration special agents.
                  6. Federal Protective Officers.
                  7. United States Customs Service special agents, inspectors and
                  patrol
                  officers.
                  8. United States Postal Service police officers and inspectors.
                  9. United States park police; provided, however that,
                  notwithstanding
                  any provision of this section to the contrary, such park police
                  shall
                  also have the powers set forth in paragraph (b) of subdivision one
                  of
                  section 140.25 of this chapter and the powers set forth in
                  paragraphs
                  (d), (e) and (g) of subdivision one of section 2.20 of this article.
                  10. United States probation officers.
                  11. United States General Services Administration special agents.
                  12. United States Department of Agriculture special agents.
                  13. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms special agents.
                  14. Internal Revenue Service special agents and inspectors.
                  15. Officers of the United States bureau of prisons.
                  16. United States Fish and Wildlife special agents.
                  17. United States Naval Investigative Service special agents.
                  18. United States Department of State special agents.
                  19. Special agents of the defense criminal investigative service
                  of
                  the United States department of defense.
                  20. United States Department of Commerce, Office of
                  Export
                  Enforcement, special agents.
                  21. United States Department of Veterans Administration
                  police
                  officers employed at the Veterans Administration Medical Center
                  in
                  Batavia.
                  22. Federal Reserve law enforcement officers.
                  23. Federal air marshal program special agents.
                  * 24. United States department of transportation federal
                  police
                  officers and police supervisors assigned to the United States
                  Merchant
                  Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York; provided, however
                  that,
                  notwithstanding any provision of this section to the contrary,
                  such
                  police shall also have the powers set forth in paragraph (b)
                  of
                  subdivision one of section 140.25 of this chapter and the powers
                  set
                  forth in paragraphs (d), (e) and (g) of subdivision one of section
                  2.20
                  of this article when acting pursuant to their special duties within
                  the
                  geographical area of their employment or within one hundred yards
                  of
                  such geographical area.
                  * NB There are 2 sb 24's
                  * 24. United States Coast Guard Investigative Service special
                  agents.
                  * NB There are 2 sb 24's
                  25. United States Department of Commerce, special agents
                  and
                  enforcement officers of the National Oceanic and
                  Atmospheric
                  Administration's Fisheries Office for Law Enforcement.
                  26. Department of the Army special agents, detectives and police
                  officers.


                  27. United States Department of Interior, park rangers with
                  law
                  enforcement authority.

                  Anyway, I'm not out of luck. I'm a state court officer and have no real stake in this. I just thought that it made for interesting discussion. But back to the topic. The above statute does not mention the need for a permit, and therefore Army police are legally authorized to carry a weapon on their creds under NYS law. Whether the army allows them to do so or not is irrelevant from a legal standpoint, although it may be unwise to violate department policy.
                  Last edited by Fuerza; 10-22-2009, 09:19 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is gonna get turned into yet another DoD (all branches) police authority thread and its been beat to death on this site for years.

                    Any and all 0083's working for DoD, no matter the branch, have no authority to carry off duty. Period, plain and simple. It matters not what each individual state says who you are, its the agency that gives you your "power" if you wanna call it that. The gov't far overrules the individual states when it comes to authority so the day that DoD police for all branches get actual arrest authority is the day that cows will jump over the moon and probably the day that they allow their officers to carry off duty.

                    If you're employed by any agency within the Defense Department and you decide to carry off duty, you do so as a private citizen and not a police officer. Most people I know went out and got permits to alleviate any issues.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Air Force states that if you want to carry a sidearm off duty, you must have a CCW.

                      However, there are exceptions within the AF. Bases in different states have different rules. For example, officers in california are covered under this (( http://www.scribd.com/doc/266143/Opi...General-011005 )) which allows them to carry within the state. Not covered under 218, so they cannot cross the state line, but within they are fine.

                      OK is similar - the state recognizes us as peace officers and permits us to carry within the state off uty that same as any officer provided we have our credentials. But thats the rub since we havent got any credentials yet.

                      I have a CCW anyway - I recommended all dod police officers have one if you plan on carrying, just in case you get stopped and the unit in question is unfamiliar with you or your agency or the state law. saves you alot of headache

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by YankeeWhite View Post
                        I have a CCW anyway - I recommended all dod police officers have one if you plan on carrying, just in case you get stopped and the unit in question is unfamiliar with you or your agency or the state law. saves you alot of headache
                        There should not be any "headache" or confusion anyway since DOA, DON, Air Force and Marines Civilian Police do not have any authority off-duty anyway. All you can do is get a CCW and that's it. Don't go out there and get stopped and flash your badge/ID with your gun. 9 out of 10 times the local or state or even Fed will give you some courtesy, but that 1 time will jam you up. Simple solution. If you have a CCW, leave your "0083 police" ID/Badge at home.
                        "An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Fureza, thanks for posting the new CPL, I knew that DOI Rangers were added to the list, but did not see it....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fuerza View Post
                            This is outdated. The new statute reads:

                            § 2.15 Federal law enforcement officers; powers.
                            The following federal law enforcement officers shall have the
                            powers set forth ...
                            26. Department of the Army special agents, detectives and police
                            officers
                            .
                            Fascinating thread. It's interesting to note that the New York statute doesn't distinguish between military police officers and Army civilian police officers. It just says Army police officers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Fuerza,

                              The sovereign state of New York can empower anyone to carry a concealed weapon within the state that they want to. Similarly, the states of Vermont and Alaska don't even prohibit ANYONE from carrying a concealed handgun, I'm told.

                              That having been said, it has nothing to do with nationwide carry under LEOSA.

                              So if NY law says a DoD base police officer can carry concealed, they can't be prosecuted in state court for doing it, provided they follow the other provisions.

                              But if DoD regs specifically prohibit CCW off duty under DoD creds, a base cop may not be prosecuted under state law, but may still get in trouble with their employer. Conditions of employment. Silly, and maybe unConstitutional, but who will fight the battle?

                              In order to be included under LEOSA, an officer must work for a public agency, and have statutory powers of arrest.

                              Base uniformed DoD police don't have statutory powers of arrest. Neither do military special agents of the CID, NCIS or AFOSI.

                              Only civilian special agents, GS-1811's, of CID, NCIS and AFOSI have statutory powers of arrest under federal law.
                              Politically Correct? No.

                              Truthful? Yes!

                              Comment

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