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  • Homicide "On base"?

    This happened this past weekend. A base housing area, that the military will not patrol. A dirtbag, with no known address, who "stays with friends" is hanging out at a house in housing. A car drives up, the guy gets whacked, and he is found lying on the ground. Local city is working the homicide, and the neighbors are up in arms since this sort of commotion is common, with lots of outsiders hanging in the housing areas. And still, no base police. They are all guarding the gates, due to some higher ups poor planning.

    If I was living in housing I would be screaming at my Congressman or senator, not that it would do any good.

  • #2
    Originally posted by phillyrube View Post
    This happened this past weekend. A base housing area, that the military will not patrol. A dirtbag, with no known address, who "stays with friends" is hanging out at a house in housing. A car drives up, the guy gets whacked, and he is found lying on the ground. Local city is working the homicide, and the neighbors are up in arms since this sort of commotion is common, with lots of outsiders hanging in the housing areas. And still, no base police. They are all guarding the gates, due to some higher ups poor planning.

    If I was living in housing I would be screaming at my Congressman or senator, not that it would do any good.


    Meanwhile, some rookie REMF complains about a sworn LEO carrying his service weapon aboard base ...
    Politically Correct? No.

    Truthful? Yes!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by phillyrube View Post
      This happened this past weekend. A base housing area, that the military will not patrol. A dirtbag, with no known address, who "stays with friends" is hanging out at a house in housing. A car drives up, the guy gets whacked, and he is found lying on the ground. Local city is working the homicide, and the neighbors are up in arms since this sort of commotion is common, with lots of outsiders hanging in the housing areas. And still, no base police. They are all guarding the gates, due to some higher ups poor planning.

      If I was living in housing I would be screaming at my Congressman or senator, not that it would do any good.
      I'm loving it... I hate that someone had to die, but it just shows how inept the navy is when it comes to "law enforcement." The Navy is trying to pass off all the responsibility of housing to VBPD so that they don't have to report that crime happens on Navy property, by Navy members. It sucks for the 3rd Precinct officers who now have to add those dumps to their beats.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by phillyrube View Post
        This happened this past weekend. A base housing area, that the military will not patrol. A dirtbag, with no known address, who "stays with friends" is hanging out at a house in housing. A car drives up, the guy gets whacked, and he is found lying on the ground. Local city is working the homicide, and the neighbors are up in arms since this sort of commotion is common, with lots of outsiders hanging in the housing areas. And still, no base police. They are all guarding the gates, due to some higher ups poor planning.

        If I was living in housing I would be screaming at my Congressman or senator, not that it would do any good.
        Is the victim a military member or dependent? Is the suspect a military member or dependent? Is the area where the crime occurred on base/post in an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction? Based on what little you described I'm guessing the answer to all those questions is NO.

        First, "base police" would most likely be first responders only on base/post inside the fence. Housing that is outside and accessible to the general public is most like concurrent jurisdiction, and calls for service are likely routed to the local PD or SO.

        Second, when it comes to investigating a homicide, IF there is a nexus to the military, that would be a matter for a Military Criminal Investigative Organization (MCIO) like AFOSI, Army CID, CGIS and/or NCIS, not the "base police" (ie, Security Forces, MPs, etc.).

        Third, if the suspect is not a military member, then military personnel including those who are Special Agents with an MCIO, cannot execute search warrants on civilians, seize evidence from civilians, or arrest civilians. So you would need either civilian agents with an MCIO for those operations, another federal agency, AND if the crime did not occur in an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction, you would absolutely need local law enforcement to investigate AND prosecute the homicide, as it's unlikely that the crime you describe fits the federal murder statute.

        So what I'm saying is, why are you so worked up about the local police working the case rather than the "base police?"
        Last edited by SA13; 09-17-2008, 02:40 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SA13 View Post
          Is the victim a military member or dependent? Is the suspect a military member or dependent? Is the area where the crime occurred on base/post in an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction? Based on what little you described I'm guessing the answer to all those questions is NO.

          First, "base police" would most likely be first responders only on base/post inside the fence. Housing that is outside and accessible to the general public is most like concurrent jurisdiction, and calls for service are likely routed to the local PD or SO.

          Second, when it comes to investigating a homicide, IF there is a nexus to the military, that would be a matter for a Military Criminal Investigative Organization (MCIO) like AFOSI, Army CID, CGIS and/or NCIS, not the "base police" (ie, Security Forces, MPs, etc.).

          Third, if the suspect is not a military member, then military personnel including those who are Special Agents with an MCIO, cannot execute search warrants on civilians, seize evidence from civilians, or arrest civilians. So you would need either civilian agents with an MCIO for those operations, another federal agency, AND if the crime did not occur in an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction, you would absolutely need local law enforcement to investigate AND prosecute the homicide, as it's unlikely that the crime you describe fits the federal murder statute.

          So what I'm saying is, why are you so worked up about the local police working the case rather than the "base police?"
          At present, the only publicly confirmed link is that this incident happened in Navy Family Housing, and that the victim was staying with person in housing. He had no direct link to the military.

          What Rube is commenting on is that since 2005, Navy Region Mid-Atlantic has passed off responsibility of all it's family housing areas to the local PD's. These housing areas are outside the gate, but still on federally controlled property. Rube has commented in the past, and I can confirm that the local PD's get ABSOLUTELY NO SUPPORT from the base officers for any incidents that occur in family housing. As far as the Navy is concerned the area is public housing now. In fact the navy is removing all signs that warn person that the property belongs to the Federal Government.

          The net result is two fold... The persons living in Family housing are complaining about the decrease in service that they see from the City departments. Virginia Beach has more important things to do than keep units tied up in a few housing areas, unlike when the DON Police patrolled the areas. Secondly, the Navy has the gumption to be upset with how local PD's respond to incidents. One high ranking official with the Navy condemned a Norfolk Officer for shooting a Navy member who charged at him with a screwdriver.

          It is a real bag of crap... The Navy has now authorized private security guards to patrol these areas. These PSC's have no authority, and can do nothing but call tow trucks and 911. The local PD's have asked to have the base Police patrol the housing areas again to aid in response, but Navy management is very much set against this happening. I feel the result will be a drastic return to the days in the 80's and 90's here when family housing was no better than section 8. Its halfway there in some areas already.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SA13 View Post
            Second, when it comes to investigating a homicide, IF there is a nexus to the military, that would be a matter for a Military Criminal Investigative Organization (MCIO) like AFOSI, Army CID, CGIS and/or NCIS, not the "base police.

            Third, if the suspect is not a military member, then military personnel including those who are Special Agents with an MCIO, cannot execute search warrants on civilians, seize evidence from civilians, or arrest civilians. So you would need either civilian agents with an MCIO for those operations, another federal agency, AND if the crime did not occur in an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction, you would absolutely need local law enforcement to investigate AND prosecute the homicide, as it's unlikely that the crime you describe fits the federal murder statute.
            NCIS is a civilian federal agency, and since 2002 NCIS special agents have had civilian arrest authority.

            Pursuant to Public Law 106-398, the Secretary of the Navy authorized civilian special agents of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service to execute and serve warrants and make arrests without warrants. The Secretary's action became official when the Attorney General of the United States followed the lead of the Secretary of Defense and on 18 Apr 2002 approved the guidelines under which our agents operate.

            Comment


            • #7
              So what part of SA13's post regarding civilian NCIS/MCIO agents didn't you get?
              Politically Correct? No.

              Truthful? Yes!

              Comment


              • #8
                The problem is the government passed the buck in late 04/05 to privatize the military housing. Many of these housing "communities" then became the property of the mangement company. If your city attorney was smart, he can send a bill to the navy for services rendered since they are not getting the taxed value of the property.

                You can blame Bush and Rummy for this one. They wanted their buds to make money off the backs of hardworking military members who now lose their BHA as rent.
                I don't answer recruitment messages....

                Comment


                • #9
                  SMK described this can of worms pretty well. Base PDs used to patrol these areas, and in some cases had satellite offices in place. Crime was pretty well non-existent, with the exception of some juvenile issues, and the normal domestics. Most had very effective bike patrols. Local PD had concurrent jurisdiction, as they did. In 2005, all military police were pulled behind the gates, and the housing management went to a contractor. Housing areas, formally nice, are fast becoming slums. Local PD cannot enforce most traffic violations, as the streets are government owned. We also cannot enforce things like junk vehilces, broken windows, and other things that the concept of community policing address. Subsequently, where you had some control over the residents living there ( a fast call to the CO does wonders), now you have none. The Navy, MY NAVY, has really screwed the pooch on this one.

                  Ride to Langley AFB, or Ft Eustis, and you'll find very professional military law enforcement patrolling the housing areas. So in my case, I have 3 housing areas dumped into my precinct patrol zones, with no increase in manning. Career military members, who are used to living in base housing that is safe and well maintained now have to contend with resdients who no longer give a damn, the boon of Section 8 landlords.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Local PD had concurrent jurisdiction
                    Has this changed? If not, locals can enforce anything they want, and actually, they probably have right of refusal on crimes there anyway.

                    As long as the juristiction of the area is not "Exclusive" Local/State PD have just as much authority as the Mil PO's did.

                    M-11
                    “All men dream...... But not equally..
                    Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it is vanity;
                    but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,
                    for they act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible.....”

                    TE Lawrence

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by joedirt View Post
                      NCIS is a civilian federal agency, and since 2002 NCIS special agents have had civilian arrest authority.

                      Pursuant to Public Law 106-398, the Secretary of the Navy authorized civilian special agents of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service to execute and serve warrants and make arrests without warrants. The Secretary's action became official when the Attorney General of the United States followed the lead of the Secretary of Defense and on 18 Apr 2002 approved the guidelines under which our agents operate.
                      Okaaay. That was pretty much covered with these statements:

                      "Third, if the suspect is not a military member, then military personnel including those who are Special Agents with an MCIO, cannot execute search warrants on civilians, seize evidence from civilians, or arrest civilians. So you would need either civilian agents with an MCIO for those operations, another federal agency . . .

                      Sorry if my typo leaving out the "or" before "another federal agency" somehow confused you, but it still seems clear to me that covers civilian NCIS agents. However, the original poster did not specify that it was a Navy base, others made that ASSUMPTION, but I did not.
                      Last edited by SA13; 09-17-2008, 04:12 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
                        The problem is the government passed the buck in late 04/05 to privatize the military housing. Many of these housing "communities" then became the property of the mangement company. If your city attorney was smart, he can send a bill to the navy for services rendered since they are not getting the taxed value of the property.

                        You can blame Bush and Rummy for this one. They wanted their buds to make money off the backs of hardworking military members who now lose their BHA as rent.
                        I agree, the company that has the contract on our post has it for 100 years, and they suck there is talk about turning one of the housing areas over to the local PD, problem is the area splits 2 county lines neither county wants it the way the military wants to give it to them. The sole reason for giving it to them? Some dip dunk thinks it will lower the crime rates on post. And you bet it will make a huge dent in the crime rate…………as post no longer has to report it to DA. So in one stroke of the pen the current PM gets credit for about a 25% drop in crime during his command, not bad for someone gunning for full bird.
                        It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Reading this thread reminds me why I got out of the Army MPs! Wow! I thought it was bad when I was in, but it sounds like it's REALLY gone to chit now!!!

                          For those who are still active-duty: Thanks for joining! Your service is still appreciated!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Most LE on most bases is going contractor, at least for the AF. We still do Gates and LE/Sec at Charleston, so we respond first, then call the local boys if need be
                            Former Police Officer (Injured LOD)
                            USAF VETERAN 2004-2012
                            "The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day."-LTC Grossman
                            Emergency Services Dispatcher, APG MD

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by J2H View Post
                              Most LE on most bases is going contractor, at least for the AF. We still do Gates and LE/Sec at Charleston, so we respond first, then call the local boys if need be
                              Not contractor, civilian. DOD is barred from contracting out law enforcement. They can contract security services though.

                              Comment

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