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Arrest for Speeding or Open Container

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  • Coogan
    replied
    I had this arrest not too long ago. The guy was an a-hole and refused to sign a citation for Open Container. I called sarge, told him I wanted to take him to jail for refusing to sign and the rest is history. I booked him for Open Container and wrote on the citation in the signature box "refused to sign-filed in jail". Turned the citation in as my affidavit and was on my way.

    It can be done!

    Leave a comment:


  • AC1074
    replied
    Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
    When dealing with people's liberties, I like being specific.
    Can't get anymore specific than that. I think the law is cleary stated just misinterpreted by some

    Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
    Absolutely not. A traffic stop is not an arrest, but a detention.
    Detention by text book academy definition? Yes of course. However, when dealing with people's liberties, the question whether the person is under arrest or not depends whether the person has been deprived of personal liberty of movement. Are they free to leave or move around at any time during a traffic stop?

    Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
    A citation is not a promise to appear. A citation is a written notice to the offender that he must appear before a magistrate. It gives the time, location, name of the offender, address of the offender, and charge. The signature of the offender IS the written promise to appear. If the offender does not sign, he is not making a promise to appear. If the offender does not sign, you bring the offender before a magistrate.
    By techincal terms you are correct. I was summarizing the whole citation as the "not an admission of guilt but a promise to appear". Yes, if the violater does not sign he is not making a promise to appear and you bring him before a magistrate which means a custodial arrest and the charge is "violate promise to appear in court". He is in violation by refusing to sign the citation after you have properly explained the citation to him and ask for the signature. I think you answered your own question to begin with.

    Originally posted by beavo451
    Absolutely not. A refusal to sign is a refusal to make a promise. Just because you are not "promising to appear" does not mean you are, by default, "refusing to appear".
    Absolutely so. By your own defintion you are refusing to appear in court (citation = notice to appear) by not signing the citation (signature = promise). So by not signing you are refusing (refusing = to decline to accept or an unwillingness to accept).

    Originally posted by beavo451
    How many times do you tell people that you can't "promise" you will solve a crime? You can't promise that, but you are not necessarily refusing to solve the case.
    By personal experience I never tell anyone that. But the word "promise" has different meanings depending on its verb usage (like many other words in the english language). Promise can be:

    1. A declaration something will be done
    2. Express assurance
    3. indication of future acheivement
    4. Or in this case a signature

    Originally posted by Beavis451
    An offender that does not make a promise to appear is taken before a magistrate on the original charge. The offender is not charged with anything else.
    Yes he is. TRC 543.009 (b) states "a person who willfully violates a written promise to appear in court given as provided by this sub chapter commits a misedemeanor regardless of the disposition of the charge on which the person was arrested."

    Originally posted by beavis451
    Implied consent to what?
    I was comparing implied consent to signing a citation. By definition implied consent "is not expressly granted by a person, but rather inferred from a person's actions and the facts and circumstances of a particular situation". During a traffic stop, you generally assume the person will sign the citation until you make the final approach and ask for his signature. When they refuse to sign the citation they are in violation and you take your next course of action.

    I find this whole debate much like going into a restaurant and ordering a tall glass of lemonade with....no lemon.

    Leave a comment:


  • rgv_cop
    replied
    This thread is clear as mud.

    Leave a comment:


  • beavo451
    replied
    Originally posted by Adam12 View Post
    OK, I think we are splitting hairs here.
    When dealing with people's liberties, I like being specific.

    When you pull a car over on traffic you are basically arresting them.
    Absolutely not. A traffic stop is not an arrest, but a detention.

    Your options as an officer are book them on the charge or release them with a promise to appear aka citiation.
    A citation is not a promise to appear. A citation is a written notice to the offender that he must appear before a magistrate. It gives the time, location, name of the offender, address of the offender, and charge. The signature of the offender IS the written promise to appear. If the offender does not sign, he is not making a promise to appear. If the offender does not sign, you bring the offender before a magistrate.


    Take the basic citation approach. "you are not admitting guilt or pleaing guilty by signing the citation, you are promising to appear in court". A person who wilfully violates a written promise to appear in court (which is the citation) commits a misdemeanor.
    Again, the citation itself is a notice and the signature is the promise

    They are basically refusing to appear in court on the charge by not signing the citation.
    Absolutely not. A refusal to sign is a refusal to make a promise. Just because you are not "promising to appear" does not mean you are, by default, "refusing to appear".

    How many times do you tell people that you can't "promise" you will solve a crime? You can't promise that, but you are not necessarily refusing to solve the case.

    The officer then has to take the person before a magistrate which amounts to fully arresting and booking them to see the judge.
    An offender that does not make a promise to appear is taken before a magistrate on the original charge. The offender is not charged with anything else.

    The violater's "promise" is essentially implied consent.
    Implied consent to what?

    Leave a comment:


  • AC1074
    replied
    Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
    You are correct that signing is making a written promise to appear. If they refuse to sign, they are not making a written promise to appear. You cannot "violate" a promise when that promise was never even made. This is for TC 543.009 "Violation of Promise to Appear". There is no such thing as "violation to promise to appear". That would be like charging somebody that doesn't bail out of jail after an arrest.
    OK, I think we are splitting hairs here. When you pull a car over on traffic you are basically arresting them. Your options as an officer are book them on the charge or release them with a promise to appear aka citiation.

    Take the basic citation approach. "you are not admitting guilt or pleaing guilty by signing the citation, you are promising to appear in court". A person who wilfully violates a written promise to appear in court (which is the citation) commits a misdemeanor. They are basically refusing to appear in court on the charge by not signing the citation. The officer then has to take the person before a magistrate which amounts to fully arresting and booking them to see the judge. The violater's "promise" is essentially implied consent.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scubadiver
    replied
    Originally posted by creedstaind View Post
    Would love to know which one that is. Shoot me a PM?
    Female that talks so quite you can barley hear her.

    Leave a comment:


  • creedstaind
    replied
    Originally posted by JTShooter View Post
    That's because we believe we are the end all, be all of LE in Texas. That and one of the current jail sgts only has 76 arrests in 12 years....
    Would love to know which one that is. Shoot me a PM?

    Leave a comment:


  • beavo451
    replied
    Originally posted by Rush817 View Post
    Yes! If they don't sign the citation he/she is not making a written promise to appear therefore he/she takes a ride. I think we are saying the same thing but using different verbiage.
    You are correct that signing is making a written promise to appear. If they refuse to sign, they are not making a written promise to appear. You cannot "violate" a promise when that promise was never even made. This is for TC 543.009 "Violation of Promise to Appear". There is no such thing as "violation to promise to appear". That would be like charging somebody that doesn't bail out of jail after an arrest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rush817
    replied
    Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
    No! By not signing they have not promised to appear. Therefore they can't violate a promise to appear that they have not made. You ARE arresting for the charge. The law requires an officer to issue a citation first, but if they do not sign, the officer must take the offender before a magistrate.
    Yes! If they don't sign the citation he/she is not making a written promise to appear therefore he/she takes a ride. I think we are saying the same thing but using different verbiage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Se7en
    replied
    Originally posted by Scubadiver View Post
    Whats sad is she is not even my least fav. one up there. None of the current sgts know the CCP at all. Its seems like the last 4 times I have been up there I get into a huge fight with them wanting me to release the charges, and then the lt gets involved and tells them im fine.

    Hell one of the jail sgts, called me a "Chicken **** officer" for a stop I made "Fail to signal int to turn" which led to a man dell of cs pg1. Didn't want to take the arrest cause he didn't believe it to be a good stop.
    Until they get some sgt's back that know the law I avoid that place at night.
    Yeah... have to love the cops that can't think outside of the box and learn all the laws to be an effective cop. At my old department if you stopped for anything outside of speeding or headlight out you were making "chicken ****" stops... didn't matter I was hooking rolling meth labs and such off those stops.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scubadiver
    replied
    Originally posted by JTShooter View Post
    That's because we believe we are the end all, be all of LE in Texas. That and one of the current jail sgts only has 76 arrests in 12 years....
    Whats sad is she is not even my least fav. one up there. None of the current sgts know the CCP at all. Its seems like the last 4 times I have been up there I get into a huge fight with them wanting me to release the charges, and then the lt gets involved and tells them im fine.

    Hell one of the jail sgts, called me a "Chicken **** officer" for a stop I made "Fail to signal int to turn" which led to a man dell of cs pg1. Didn't want to take the arrest cause he didn't believe it to be a good stop.
    Until they get some sgt's back that know the law I avoid that place at night.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crimy
    replied
    Has their been any Texas case law or from another state of someone contesting a warrant arrest originating from them receiving a citation that they refused to sign and was allowed to leave the location. If so was the ruling from the court that the warrant arrest was valid or invalid as the violator never signed the citation promising to contact the court.

    Curious as I have had several people refuses to sign the citation which ends up with me writing refused on the citation and either handing them their copy or place it between the front wiper blades and windshield. I know most just end up paying the citation but some have gone to warrant and ended up getting arrested. Our city attorney has never mentioned of anybody arguing the fact that they refused to sign the citation after the warrant arrest.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3441
    replied
    Originally posted by Tmg View Post
    Arrest them for the arrestable charges. Write a ticket for the speeding and open container and put it in their property.
    That's what we ended up doing

    Leave a comment:


  • OneAdam12
    replied
    Not Texas but,

    Just be glad you don't have to transport them to the nearest mailbox anymore to "post a cash bond".
    Whatever happened to taking their DL as bond when they refuse to sign? Write "refused" and on the back of the cite was their temp DL.

    Leave a comment:


  • JTShooter
    replied
    Originally posted by Texas1836 View Post
    You are correct JT. Our General Orders states you write "refused", contact a SGT, and send them on the road. I acknowledged that with the jail sgts but the discussion continued and they stated nowhere in Texas could an officer take them to jail.
    That's because we believe we are the end all, be all of LE in Texas. That and one of the current jail sgts only has 76 arrests in 12 years....

    Leave a comment:

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