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Arrest for Speeding or Open Container


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  • #31
    This thread is clear as mud.
    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called Sons of God - Matthew 5:9


    • #32
      Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
      When dealing with people's liberties, I like being specific.
      Can't get anymore specific than that. I think the law is cleary stated just misinterpreted by some

      Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
      Absolutely not. A traffic stop is not an arrest, but a detention.
      Detention by text book academy definition? Yes of course. However, when dealing with people's liberties, the question whether the person is under arrest or not depends whether the person has been deprived of personal liberty of movement. Are they free to leave or move around at any time during a traffic stop?

      Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
      A citation is not a promise to appear. A citation is a written notice to the offender that he must appear before a magistrate. It gives the time, location, name of the offender, address of the offender, and charge. The signature of the offender IS the written promise to appear. If the offender does not sign, he is not making a promise to appear. If the offender does not sign, you bring the offender before a magistrate.
      By techincal terms you are correct. I was summarizing the whole citation as the "not an admission of guilt but a promise to appear". Yes, if the violater does not sign he is not making a promise to appear and you bring him before a magistrate which means a custodial arrest and the charge is "violate promise to appear in court". He is in violation by refusing to sign the citation after you have properly explained the citation to him and ask for the signature. I think you answered your own question to begin with.

      Originally posted by beavo451
      Absolutely not. A refusal to sign is a refusal to make a promise. Just because you are not "promising to appear" does not mean you are, by default, "refusing to appear".
      Absolutely so. By your own defintion you are refusing to appear in court (citation = notice to appear) by not signing the citation (signature = promise). So by not signing you are refusing (refusing = to decline to accept or an unwillingness to accept).

      Originally posted by beavo451
      How many times do you tell people that you can't "promise" you will solve a crime? You can't promise that, but you are not necessarily refusing to solve the case.
      By personal experience I never tell anyone that. But the word "promise" has different meanings depending on its verb usage (like many other words in the english language). Promise can be:

      1. A declaration something will be done
      2. Express assurance
      3. indication of future acheivement
      4. Or in this case a signature

      Originally posted by Beavis451
      An offender that does not make a promise to appear is taken before a magistrate on the original charge. The offender is not charged with anything else.
      Yes he is. TRC 543.009 (b) states "a person who willfully violates a written promise to appear in court given as provided by this sub chapter commits a misedemeanor regardless of the disposition of the charge on which the person was arrested."

      Originally posted by beavis451
      Implied consent to what?
      I was comparing implied consent to signing a citation. By definition implied consent "is not expressly granted by a person, but rather inferred from a person's actions and the facts and circumstances of a particular situation". During a traffic stop, you generally assume the person will sign the citation until you make the final approach and ask for his signature. When they refuse to sign the citation they are in violation and you take your next course of action.

      I find this whole debate much like going into a restaurant and ordering a tall glass of lemonade with....no lemon.


      • #33
        I had this arrest not too long ago. The guy was an a-hole and refused to sign a citation for Open Container. I called sarge, told him I wanted to take him to jail for refusing to sign and the rest is history. I booked him for Open Container and wrote on the citation in the signature box "refused to sign-filed in jail". Turned the citation in as my affidavit and was on my way.

        It can be done!


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