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  • #16
    Originally posted by Rush817 View Post
    Your arresting them for Violation To Promise To Appear on the Speeding and Open Container charge.
    No! By not signing they have not promised to appear. Therefore they can't violate a promise to appear that they have not made. You ARE arresting for the charge. The law requires an officer to issue a citation first, but if they do not sign, the officer must take the offender before a magistrate.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Tmg View Post
      Arrest them for the arrestable charges. Write a ticket for the speeding and open container and put it in their property.
      If you are Dallas PD, you can't do that anymore.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Texas1836 View Post
        You are correct JT. Our General Orders states you write "refused", contact a SGT, and send them on the road. I acknowledged that with the jail sgts but the discussion continued and they stated nowhere in Texas could an officer take them to jail.
        Unless the GO section has been updated since I remember it, this is only partially correct. I'll try to remember to check next time I'm at work.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Texas1836 View Post
          You are correct JT. Our General Orders states you write "refused", contact a SGT, and send them on the road. I acknowledged that with the jail sgts but the discussion continued and they stated nowhere in Texas could an officer take them to jail.
          That's because we believe we are the end all, be all of LE in Texas. That and one of the current jail sgts only has 76 arrests in 12 years....
          “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

          "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

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          • #20
            Not Texas but,

            Just be glad you don't have to transport them to the nearest mailbox anymore to "post a cash bond".
            Whatever happened to taking their DL as bond when they refuse to sign? Write "refused" and on the back of the cite was their temp DL.
            Pete Malloy, "The only thing black and white about this job is the car."

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Tmg View Post
              Arrest them for the arrestable charges. Write a ticket for the speeding and open container and put it in their property.
              That's what we ended up doing

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              • #22
                Has their been any Texas case law or from another state of someone contesting a warrant arrest originating from them receiving a citation that they refused to sign and was allowed to leave the location. If so was the ruling from the court that the warrant arrest was valid or invalid as the violator never signed the citation promising to contact the court.

                Curious as I have had several people refuses to sign the citation which ends up with me writing refused on the citation and either handing them their copy or place it between the front wiper blades and windshield. I know most just end up paying the citation but some have gone to warrant and ended up getting arrested. Our city attorney has never mentioned of anybody arguing the fact that they refused to sign the citation after the warrant arrest.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by JTShooter View Post
                  That's because we believe we are the end all, be all of LE in Texas. That and one of the current jail sgts only has 76 arrests in 12 years....
                  Whats sad is she is not even my least fav. one up there. None of the current sgts know the CCP at all. Its seems like the last 4 times I have been up there I get into a huge fight with them wanting me to release the charges, and then the lt gets involved and tells them im fine.

                  Hell one of the jail sgts, called me a "Chicken **** officer" for a stop I made "Fail to signal int to turn" which led to a man dell of cs pg1. Didn't want to take the arrest cause he didn't believe it to be a good stop.
                  Until they get some sgt's back that know the law I avoid that place at night.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Scubadiver View Post
                    Whats sad is she is not even my least fav. one up there. None of the current sgts know the CCP at all. Its seems like the last 4 times I have been up there I get into a huge fight with them wanting me to release the charges, and then the lt gets involved and tells them im fine.

                    Hell one of the jail sgts, called me a "Chicken **** officer" for a stop I made "Fail to signal int to turn" which led to a man dell of cs pg1. Didn't want to take the arrest cause he didn't believe it to be a good stop.
                    Until they get some sgt's back that know the law I avoid that place at night.
                    Yeah... have to love the cops that can't think outside of the box and learn all the laws to be an effective cop. At my old department if you stopped for anything outside of speeding or headlight out you were making "chicken ****" stops... didn't matter I was hooking rolling meth labs and such off those stops.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
                      No! By not signing they have not promised to appear. Therefore they can't violate a promise to appear that they have not made. You ARE arresting for the charge. The law requires an officer to issue a citation first, but if they do not sign, the officer must take the offender before a magistrate.
                      Yes! If they don't sign the citation he/she is not making a written promise to appear therefore he/she takes a ride. I think we are saying the same thing but using different verbiage.
                      Strong Body, Sharp Mind And Good Tactics!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rush817 View Post
                        Yes! If they don't sign the citation he/she is not making a written promise to appear therefore he/she takes a ride. I think we are saying the same thing but using different verbiage.
                        You are correct that signing is making a written promise to appear. If they refuse to sign, they are not making a written promise to appear. You cannot "violate" a promise when that promise was never even made. This is for TC 543.009 "Violation of Promise to Appear". There is no such thing as "violation to promise to appear". That would be like charging somebody that doesn't bail out of jail after an arrest.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JTShooter View Post
                          That's because we believe we are the end all, be all of LE in Texas. That and one of the current jail sgts only has 76 arrests in 12 years....
                          Would love to know which one that is. Shoot me a PM?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by creedstaind View Post
                            Would love to know which one that is. Shoot me a PM?
                            Female that talks so quite you can barley hear her.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
                              You are correct that signing is making a written promise to appear. If they refuse to sign, they are not making a written promise to appear. You cannot "violate" a promise when that promise was never even made. This is for TC 543.009 "Violation of Promise to Appear". There is no such thing as "violation to promise to appear". That would be like charging somebody that doesn't bail out of jail after an arrest.
                              OK, I think we are splitting hairs here. When you pull a car over on traffic you are basically arresting them. Your options as an officer are book them on the charge or release them with a promise to appear aka citiation.

                              Take the basic citation approach. "you are not admitting guilt or pleaing guilty by signing the citation, you are promising to appear in court". A person who wilfully violates a written promise to appear in court (which is the citation) commits a misdemeanor. They are basically refusing to appear in court on the charge by not signing the citation. The officer then has to take the person before a magistrate which amounts to fully arresting and booking them to see the judge. The violater's "promise" is essentially implied consent.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Adam12 View Post
                                OK, I think we are splitting hairs here.
                                When dealing with people's liberties, I like being specific.

                                When you pull a car over on traffic you are basically arresting them.
                                Absolutely not. A traffic stop is not an arrest, but a detention.

                                Your options as an officer are book them on the charge or release them with a promise to appear aka citiation.
                                A citation is not a promise to appear. A citation is a written notice to the offender that he must appear before a magistrate. It gives the time, location, name of the offender, address of the offender, and charge. The signature of the offender IS the written promise to appear. If the offender does not sign, he is not making a promise to appear. If the offender does not sign, you bring the offender before a magistrate.


                                Take the basic citation approach. "you are not admitting guilt or pleaing guilty by signing the citation, you are promising to appear in court". A person who wilfully violates a written promise to appear in court (which is the citation) commits a misdemeanor.
                                Again, the citation itself is a notice and the signature is the promise

                                They are basically refusing to appear in court on the charge by not signing the citation.
                                Absolutely not. A refusal to sign is a refusal to make a promise. Just because you are not "promising to appear" does not mean you are, by default, "refusing to appear".

                                How many times do you tell people that you can't "promise" you will solve a crime? You can't promise that, but you are not necessarily refusing to solve the case.

                                The officer then has to take the person before a magistrate which amounts to fully arresting and booking them to see the judge.
                                An offender that does not make a promise to appear is taken before a magistrate on the original charge. The offender is not charged with anything else.

                                The violater's "promise" is essentially implied consent.
                                Implied consent to what?

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