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  • #46
    What county do you work for if you don't mind me asking?

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    • #47
      Turn your PM on and ill message you.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
        Sheriff's will get police authority when municipal agencies get the right to run radar.....
        People should take it with sarcasim... Anyways when its not the rural legislators complaining about radar it was Rochelle Bilel along with the GCL who complained that white officers would stop more black motorists using radar. Ironic that she was fired as head of Colwyn police.

        As far as local control, Michigan has the same set up as PA with no unincorporated areas. Yet they have sheriff's who handle patrol duties alongside municipal and state police agencies. There are too many towns that operate with just part time officers. Yet the word regionalization is too much for some politicians. Its the same at the state level, we have Capitol Police/ Ft. Indiantown Gap Police/ Veterans Home Police who can become one agency. Same goes with DNREC Park Rangers, Fish and Boat Commission officers and Game Commission officers. Allowing sheriff's to handle patrol duties would benefit both the municipality and the PSP troopers who may not have a full barracks of troopers to handle all the LE for several counties.
        I don't answer recruitment messages....

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        • #49
          Couldn't agree more Orlando. At the end of the day you'll always have those who would like to progress the profession and others who are happy with what they have and don't want change of any kind sadly.

          DepOfc, when I get home I'll tinker with my settings. Using my phone and for some reason I can't seem to locate the PM settings.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
            Allowing sheriff's to handle patrol duties would benefit both the municipality and the PSP troopers who may not have a full barracks of troopers to handle all the LE for several counties.

            I agree. It doesn't mean PSP or local municipalities would have to give up their powers or jurisdiction. They would still be able to be the primary responding agencies for the calls/incidents.

            Then when it comes time that one of the agencies are tied up and another call/incident comes in, the sheriffs office can take care of it.

            Sheriffs offices wouldn't need to change their hours or pay (although itd be nice), considering they are in court a lot of the time anyway, but it wouldn't hurt to make them a "secondary agency," if that makes sense.

            (I am going out on a branch here) Have PSP and local municipalities be the main/first responders, then (when needed) have sheriffs offices be "secondary" responders (sounds a bit cheesy, I know), when requested. And let them have the right to investigate that incident, file charges, etc.

            Just a thought.

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            • #51
              I was just thinking stop hiring municipal police and only hire county/sheriffs. In the end you will have the same amount of officers in the field(actually more because the tax revenue for certain municipalities starting at 60+k and all the unneccesary Chiefs at 80-120k can go to hiring more county patrol officers at the lower starting salary of 40k.

              "But dieZl, I make 65k because in my area houses average 300k"
              - who said you have to live where you patrol/work. Most officers I talked to say they don't and choose not to.

              "Legally we aren't setup like that"
              - a few pen strokes and legislative action can quickly fix that

              "It'll cost more money"
              - with a flat tax across every resident of the county? Nope! No matter how poor or rich the currebt municipality is right now they clearly have enough for the basics. Why would this basic expense taxes disappear if we go county? Simply put it wouldn't disappear.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
                People should take it with sarcasim... Anyways when its not the rural legislators complaining about radar it was Rochelle Bilel along with the GCL who complained that white officers would stop more black motorists using radar. Ironic that she was fired as head of Colwyn police.

                As far as local control, Michigan has the same set up as PA with no unincorporated areas. Yet they have sheriff's who handle patrol duties alongside municipal and state police agencies. There are too many towns that operate with just part time officers. Yet the word regionalization is too much for some politicians. Its the same at the state level, we have Capitol Police/ Ft. Indiantown Gap Police/ Veterans Home Police who can become one agency. Same goes with DNREC Park Rangers, Fish and Boat Commission officers and Game Commission officers. Allowing sheriff's to handle patrol duties would benefit both the municipality and the PSP troopers who may not have a full barracks of troopers to handle all the LE for several counties.
                Yeah we definitely don't have the Troopers to cover the amount of area that we cover. I know myself, on any given shift I cover 4 townships by myself. Thus response times suffer and there's less time to do real police work and be proactive.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by diezl View Post
                  I was just thinking stop hiring municipal police and only hire county/sheriffs. In the end you will have the same amount of officers in the field(actually more because the tax revenue for certain municipalities starting at 60+k and all the unneccesary Chiefs at 80-120k can go to hiring more county patrol officers at the lower starting salary of 40k.

                  "But dieZl, I make 65k because in my area houses average 300k"
                  - who said you have to live where you patrol/work. Most officers I talked to say they don't and choose not to.

                  "Legally we aren't setup like that"
                  - a few pen strokes and legislative action can quickly fix that

                  "It'll cost more money"
                  - with a flat tax across every resident of the county? Nope! No matter how poor or rich the currebt municipality is right now they clearly have enough for the basics. Why would this basic expense taxes disappear if we go county? Simply put it wouldn't disappear.

                  Dude, I understand exactly what your idea is. In theory it would great, but it'll just never happen. I feel like you're that guy in the academy that would argue with an instructor. Last I checked, I've worked in more than one county here in PA, both fulltime positions.

                  Once again. Would you really wanna be that guy working with dudes who are "grandfathered in" making over twice as much? Like I said before, any union would fight that.

                  Most departments have a residency requirement. That may be within the township or twenty miles or whatever. I'm lucky enough I can live anywhere I want with my current agency. Most of the guys I work with live within the township or the next one over. It's not North Philly bro, its MontCo, so don't see why you'd choose not to live around your work area. For the most part, you're dealing with middle class to pretty wealthy people, not the corner boys slinging dope.

                  And back to the house price/tax argument, the 300k house is pretty much an average single home in the Montco/Bucks area dude. So unless your cool with that price and a salary of 40k go for it, but good luck on affording it.

                  Once again, I'm not arguing with you on your idea. In theory it would work, it'll just never happen. Once you get on the job you'll realize how political it is. None of the chiefs would want to start a county department, they'd lose rank, who pays the pensions of guys about to retire, etc?
                  ERMedic
                  Forum Member
                  Last edited by ERMedic; 01-14-2015, 03:34 PM.
                  "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

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                  • #54
                    ERMEDIC,

                    I understand what youre saying and sadly you are correct. PA is way too political and unionized to allow for any substantial change in the way policing is done in this state, right, wrong or indifferent. I live in Montgomery County and not some hole in the wall. Average housing near me is between 190K-220K. The arguments I have heard made by multiple officers as to why they don't live where they work is "do you really want to run into a guy you arrested when you're with your wife and kids?" - a valid argument. For the last time man, NO ONE IS GETTING REPLACED in my hypothetical county takeover scenario. Everyone would be allowed to finish out their careers with the municipality they work for, retirements being paid by those respective townships/or however the solution would be. Just new hires would be by the county. Municipals would not be allowed to hire at all. It would basically be a 20+ year slow takeover until no municipality police department existed.

                    Indeed I too hope to find a job in this state but know full well I am likely going to have to look outside my state.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by diezl View Post
                      ERMEDIC,

                      I understand what youre saying and sadly you are correct. PA is way too political and unionized to allow for any substantial change in the way policing is done in this state, right, wrong or indifferent. I live in Montgomery County and not some hole in the wall. Average housing near me is between 190K-220K. The arguments I have heard made by multiple officers as to why they don't live where they work is "do you really want to run into a guy you arrested when you're with your wife and kids?" - a valid argument. For the last time man, NO ONE IS GETTING REPLACED in my hypothetical county takeover scenario. Everyone would be allowed to finish out their careers with the municipality they work for, retirements being paid by those respective townships/or however the solution would be. Just new hires would be by the county. Municipals would not be allowed to hire at all. It would basically be a 20+ year slow takeover until no municipality police department existed.

                      Indeed I too hope to find a job in this state but know full well I am likely going to have to look outside my state.
                      So I'd assume you're in the Abington/Upper Moreland area. I still live in Philly. My agency borders Bucks and these houses aren't cheap in this township and they get even more expensive in Bucks, it's insane. I get the whole "not running into a guy I locked up" thing. To me, it's just different in the county even the people are different. Long story short, it wouldn't bother me and much as it would seeing a dude I locked up in the city.
                      "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

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                      • #56
                        In counties where there is a majority of a police force, county police is not needed. Bucks does not have county police other than park rangers yet in all honesty does Pendell or Hulmeville really need its own police force? In all honesty those 2 departments could be merged into Middletown Township. I can also say the same for Bryn Athyn police with it being merged into Lower Moreland. using the sheriff as a secondary response at the county level will just place another layer of "security" in some of the more rural counties, mayb e being back up to some smaller departments also in the metro areas.
                        I don't answer recruitment messages....

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                        • #57
                          ERMEDIC; im closer to Norristown(not norristown though). I live near blue bell, whitpain, east norriton, plymouth meeting area.

                          I hate to say it like this(I am pro-sheriff/county), but in their current layout, and since this state clearly has no intention of allowing PA Sheriffs to perform the functions that are typically associated with that type of agency(patrol, running of county jail etc) PLUS the fact virtually everyone has a municipal police dept(especially in the county seats - i.e. Montco sheriffs protect the court house, but this could easily be assigned to Norristown PD, same for every county, and the various tasks sheriffs do like prisoner transport could just be assigned to the county corrections dept) then why do we even have PA Sheriffs?
                          diezl
                          Forum Member
                          Last edited by diezl; 01-15-2015, 09:42 AM.

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                          • #58
                            Pa sheriff's and k-9's

                            Originally posted by diezl View Post
                            Absolutely not.
                            I'm going to entertain you with one more post, simply because you are truly ignorant to reality.

                            Originally posted by diezl View Post
                            I am assuming you are a municipal officer somewhere in PA. I am a Montgomery County resident and have been my entire life. Not once have I or a single person I know EVER seen a Police Chief on patrol or pretty much ever for any reason. I actually did an entire report on this very issue as part of an assignment. If you were to go review the average salary for police chiefs in the counties surrounding Philadelphia(Did not do beyond the surrounding counties) they are absolutely around that salary. A little research and you can find that out as well. Please provide an example of a police department in Montgomery, Chester, Bucks, Berks and Delaware counties where the Chiefs make less AND answer calls for service.
                            This right here is your exact problem. You assume your personal experiences are a reflection of what is truly going on throughout the state. You are a resident. You have never been a police officer. While I have much respect for corrections, they too are not police officers. So with that you must be willing to understand that someone who is a police officer has been both a police officer AND a resident. We see things from both perspectives and we network and interact with many more other officers and departments during the course of our careers enabling us to broader perspective than your narrow Montgomery County resident only one.

                            Just because you have never SEEN something (I.e. Chief on patrol or making 50k) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That is the essence of your ignorance. If you haven't seen it or read it somewhere, then it must not be true!

                            You're wrong again.

                            The following is from Berks County in 2009. Examples as you requested:

                            - Bethel Chief is part time - $39,000
                            - Douglass Chief - $61,422
                            - Fleetwood Borough Chief - $63,502
                            - Hamburg Chief - $65,000
                            - Robesonia Borough - $54,166
                            - Robeson Township - $64,590
                            - Sinking Spring Chief - $60,195
                            - Tulpehocken Township Chief - $45,552
                            - Wernersville Borough Chief - $54,000
                            - Womelsdorf Chief - $41,600

                            I don't believe all of the above do but the smaller ones answer calls for service because they're sometimes the only officer on duty. So yes police chiefs do answer calls. The department may only get 400 calls per year, but they are pushing a car nonetheless.

                            Nobody cares about your rinky dink high school thesis or 13th grade community college essay. Obviously you should have done more research.

                            Originally posted by diezl View Post

                            For the departments that are truly so small, having their own department can go either way. Depending on coverage area I can see why it would benefit a town far removed from any population center to have their own small department. However a town like royersford PA? Really? I believe they have 6-8 police. Completely unnecessary department. Departments like West Norriton? Absolutely useless. They both are prime examples of departments that can be easily enveloped by nearby larger departments, or a county based system.

                            You say quality of service right? Our local police department is on the larger side, and there used to be a site established just to share stories of all the people that have been harrased by them needlessly. I myself have no record, great credit, played sports my whole life etc and I have been harrassed for no reason other then jogging when it was cold out.
                            You're an idiot and with this attitude it's no wonder you were never hired. I will edit and add a link for you to read regarding your above statements here.

                            Originally posted by diezl View Post

                            "Quality of service" is very subjectable, and I fully stand behind my statement if you asked the residents do they care if its local or county, the majority would not. You assume that disolving a municipal police department automatically means higher call times. If you had the same amount of officers and even more because you can field more by dropping the STARTING pay to about $40K, how exactly would call times suffer? No one cares enough to have local police disbanded or not.
                            You're right it is subjectable. A three hour wait for a criminal mischief report might not be a big deal to you but it may be to your neighbor. That's why, again, your personal experiences or thoughts do not reflect the whole.

                            Look up Upper Macungie and Berks-Lehigh regional police. You will see people do care to have the regional force disbanded when the service isn't meeting their needs.

                            You're also a fool to think that if the police (or sheriff's) cost less they will put more troops on the streets. Wrong. They will put the savings in their pockets.

                            Originally posted by diezl View Post
                            At the end of the day it would just go to a political issue/resolution anyway. You keep assuming call times go up. We have TONS of municipal police in this region of PA. If you keep and ADD officers, how do call times go up? You claim an officer with experience would not work for $40K? Of course not. I stating dropping initial pay to $40K, not cutting every current officer down.

                            If we were to adopt a county based policing system, it would not cost more money at all. By legal precedent we could simply change "ACT 120" to be encompassing on a county level and add any additional time to training(which would be negligible).Even if we just said as a state "ACT 120 will now just be a county based training rather then municipal", how exactly will it cost more? Please elaborate.
                            It would cost more money. I already explained to you as did several other posters, sheriff's are not trained the same. Some not all have ACT120. It does not matter what you call it, the lack of training is still present. There's several sections the sheriff's don't get in their Academy that officers do. You can change the name of the training but the curriculum will stay the same and same problems remain. Not to mention you haven't mentioned at all anything about equipment resolutions. All the police with city radios will need new equipment to speak inter agency and county wide. The costs in the details are endless.

                            Originally posted by diezl View Post
                            If you froze all municipal hiring and allowed all officers currently working to keep their jobs and any new hires would be by the county at the "new county 120" starting at 40K, why would the command staff be in competition with new hires by the county? Your argument makes no sense. Lower starting pay, tax everyone a simple flat rate around who lives in the county. How exactly would this NOT allow for the hiring of more patrol officers? There is a reason the majority of states use sheriffs and county police. I don't believe for a second PA and the NE states just happen to be so smart we figured out a better way.

                            You don't want your tax dollars used in the city? What city are you refferring to? We only have a true handful of "cities", and like any state they would have their own police. Areas like East Norriton, Whitpain, West Norriton, Royersford, Limerick, etc in no way need their very own police department. A county based agency could easily do this. Even if you assigned officers based on call volume/population density for example.

                            If everything I said is wrong, please provide links to salary ranges and articles of fact stating

                            A. Call times suffer
                            B. Less officers would be in the field
                            C. Officers will leave
                            D. Citizens prefer their very own police and in no way would want cheaper taxes and a county agency
                            E. The quality of applicant goes down by going county agency
                            F. Police Chiefs in the immediate counties surrounding Philly make $50K/yr and answer calls for service
                            G. Your claim that County police would not handle calls for service as efficiently as the locals would like/as good as their local police.

                            Your using opinions backed by no facts and saying "you're wrong".
                            Much of what you ask can be found here in a real study. The study is of Berks County. Read it, and then reread it again.

                            https://www.albright.edu/localgov/bc...tudy_final.pdf

                            You will see there are huge start up costs involved but that is just the tip of the iceberg. Your 20 year phase out plan of the municipal departments would have serious logistics issues. People retire and leave this profession for many different reasons. Assuming the newer members of the department being phased out are the younger ones on patrol, what happens when you have holes in your management after people retire, are injured permanently, or simply quit?

                            Lastly, you keep saying less taxes for EVERYBODY. That will NEVER be the case. You might be able to get less taxes on the whole but it will not be less for everybody.

                            From the above link, the cost per resident for police services at the time of that study ranged from a low of $33 to a high of $465. The average cost per resident was $163.

                            If the County went to a county wide agency the cost per resident would increase to $245.

                            Ignoring the fact the average cost would go up, the cost for the residents on the low end of the spectrum would CERTAINLY rise, meaning taxes did not get decreased for EVERYBODY as you claim in your fantasy plan.

                            And again as other posters have also stated the resources spent on the townships paying the low end of the cost per resident taxes would be receiving much less attention than the high crime high drug areas. That's just how it works. Why would I want to pay more to get less? Or even the way your fantasy plan says, if the police coverage remains the same then why should I now pay $245/yr for the same coverage I used to get for $33/year?

                            Anyway that's all I have for this. Just understand your experiences don't reflect the experiences or knowledge of the whole. As the other poster said you do sound like the guy in the academy that would argue with the instructor. Those guys don't last long in this profession. I think you just sound more like another guy on the Internet that is bitter and upset he can't land a police job after possibly putting himself through the academy. You should have waited till you got hired by an agency that would have paid for it. Similar to your questioning of why an officer would choose a 300k house on a 40k salary, why would you choose a 5k academy without a job lined up?

                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                            Top_Recruit
                            Forum Member
                            Last edited by Top_Recruit; 01-15-2015, 11:13 PM.

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                            • #59
                              Well that escalated quickly.

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                              • #60
                                So, who won?

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