Self-Defense in NJ

[SGeringer]

I do not suggest we have anything like Canada's gun law.

If you're suggesting we should register guns, you are suggesting we should have something like Canada's gun laws.

I'm not accusing you of being anti-gun.....I never once said that. You can run a gun through NCIC now......including that AK. If it was reported stolen and logged into NCIC, you wouldnt have needed to have registration to have charged him. It would be a lot cheaper to absolutely require guns be reported stolen and entered into NCIC.

To make registration work, you'd have to develop a governmental agency to do it. You'd have to basically register all guns in the US to start with to make it reasonably useful, and then probably criminalize not registering a gun. You'd have to have significant staffing to log FFL->individual sales, and basically private gun sales would be like they are in CA going through DROS, ending sales to your buddies in essence. Changes to the database would be so voluminous as to be almost unworkable. Moves, deaths, criminal convictions, new guns, lost guns, stolen guns.....huge. And then what if they're stopped with a registered gun NOT registered to them?? Do we make it illegal, like in CA, to carry a gun not registered to you?? It might sound shady, such a scenario, but it's not necessarily. My XD is being borrowed right now by a buddy back from Iraq who sold his guns prior to shipping out.

Then, we look at registration in CA. Your argument was in essence the argument made for registration there, and it hasn't exactly lived up to it's promise. Gun crime is still extremely prevalent there, and registration has not put a damper on that sort of thing.

[deputyryan]

First I have to ask you to re-read my last post as I edited it after you responded.

If you're suggesting we should register guns, you are suggesting we should have something like Canada's gun laws.

No I am not. Canada has, like you said, very cumbersom complicated and restrictive laws. I do not suggest that at all. Just because Canada did a GREAT deal more than simply register all guns doesnt mean I am suggesting the same.

You can run a gun through NCIC now......including that AK. If it was reported stolen and logged into NCIC, you wouldnt have needed to have registration to have charged him. It would be a lot cheaper to absolutely require guns be reported stolen and entered into NCIC.

From your view I am sure that appears to be a very simple and logical answer. But when you do get into law enforcement and see how much LEOs are restricted you will see how that solution is not a solution at all. Yes a stolen AK with a serial number (if the owner even has the number at the time of theft - many, if not most, do not) can be entered into NCIC. However, just because I later run the firearm through NCIC and discover it is stolen does not mean I can charge the person in possession of it with theft. All he has to tell me is he bought it from the guy he knows only as "John". Just because he has it now doesnt mean he stole it. And because there is no regulation on trading guns and no registry then it is impossible for your solution to work.

To make registration work, you'd have to develop a governmental agency to do it. You'd have to basically register all guns in the US to start with to make it reasonably useful, and then probably criminalize not registering a gun. You'd have to have significant staffing to log FFL->individual sales, and basically private gun sales would be like they are in CA going through DROS, ending sales to your buddies in essence. Changes to the database would be so voluminous as to be almost unworkable. Moves, deaths, criminal convictions, new guns, lost guns, stolen guns.....huge. And then what if they're stopped with a registered gun NOT registered to them?? Do we make it illegal, like in CA, to carry a gun not registered to you?? It might sound shady, such a scenario, but it's not necessarily. My XD is being borrowed right now by a buddy back from Iraq who sold his guns prior to shipping out.

Registration is maintained for cars with relative ease. Cars are bought and sold by the thousands every month in this state. Not to mention the agency that registers cars also issues plates, licenses and testing for licesnses. It also registers citizens to vote. Not to mention they are able to re-register every single car in this state on a yearly basis. At what cost to the vehicle owner? 36 dollars a year. I know some states are a great deal more but that is because politicians have putt heir fingers in the pot. The point here is it can be done at minimal costs.


Sales to youre buddies would not need to be eliminated. It sure isnt eliminated with registering a vehicle. Why would it need to be with guns?

Who says it HAS to be against the law to carry a fire arm that is not registered to them? Being in possession of a gun that is registered doesnt have to be a crime. Being in possession of a STOLEN gun should be (but is not).

[SGeringer]

Instinctivly because the firearm is unregistered and in the hands of dirt bags. In Florida I wouldnt be able to do anything in that very common scenario and the gang problem gets worse and worse.

That is a problem, but to me a sort of different problem that points to a wacky and arbitrary CCW law. Carrying on person w/o a permit as you know in FL is a felony. In WA and most states I know you have to have a CCW to carry loaded in a car (handgun), and rifles are fully illegal regardless. Were the law changed to require a CCW to have a loaded handgun in the car and a loaded rifle illegal, no additional government would be required and cops could have the tools to combat that problem. My own (limited) impression is that few if any gang members have CCWs, either based on age, record, or inclination. I never understood FL's laws that way....it seems to me a REAL loophole, unlike the gun show loophole.

However, just because I later run the firearm through NCIC and discover it is stolen does not mean I can charge the person in possession of it with theft. All he has to tell me is he bought it from the guy he knows only as "John". Just because he has it now doesnt mean he stole it. And because there is no regulation on trading guns and no registry then it is impossible for your solution to work.

Not being a cop puts me at a disadvantage in this discussion, so please do not perceive my retort as flippant. In this state, we have Possession of Stolen Property, which he would be charged with if in possession of an NCIC-indicated stolen firearm. As to the restrictions and other problems you describe, I can't attest to that....not enough knowledge. However, it would seem that if there is a positive legal defense to having a stolen gun as indicated by NCIC, similar pitfalls would be faced with registration.

Canada has, like you said, very cumbersom complicated and restrictive laws.

The most cumbersome law it has is registration, currently at a price tag of over $2billion and climbing. Considering how many more guns the US has and sells (that would require registration), ours would be far more expensive.

Sales to youre buddies would not need to be eliminated. It sure isnt eliminated with registering a vehicle. Why would it need to be with guns?

I'm sorry I should have been clearer. In FL and WA now, you can sell a gun to your buddy, no paperwork. In CA, you cannot do that. You have to go through a dealer (DROS), and go through the 10 day wait, etc. With registration, for it to work, you'd have to involve a DROS-type transaction just like you DO involve the state for transferring a car (title transfer). So you could sell to a buddy, sort of, in the same way that CA does it. No more private sales to your buddies though.

Who says it HAS to be against the law to carry a fire arm that is not registered to them?

If that same gangbanger is carrying a registered, stolen gun not reported and not registered to him, using your model, you can't do anything about it if it's legal to carry a gun not registered to you. As you note, many times NCIC can't indicate the gun is stolen. If my SIG gets stolen, is registered, and you catch Joe Dirtbag with it there is nothing that can be done. In CA, CCWers (the very few privileged folks) must list firearms ahead of time and cannot carry other firearms on their permit.

Being in possession of a STOLEN gun should be (but is not).

It is in WA state. What I'd like to see is states eliminate the ability to carry a weapon loaded without a CCW, period. I would also like to see a requirement to report stolen guns IMMEDIATELY upon noticing it's absence, within 24 hours with liability for misbehavior if you don't. A requirement should be made to have the s/n available to report. It'd be a lot cheaper in the long run and a lot more successful in my opinion.

[deputyryan]

Were the law changed to require a CCW to have a loaded handgun in the car and a loaded rifle illegal, no additional government would be required and cops could have the tools to combat that problem. My own (limited) impression is that few if any gang members have CCWs, either based on age, record, or inclination. I never understood FL's laws that way....it seems to me a REAL loophole, unlike the gun show loophole.

My very first post was suggesting it was “SCARY, huh?” that it is legal in Florida for someone without a CCW permit to have a firearm in a car. You replied “no”. Im a little confused here. I would agree you should require a permit to carry a loaded firearm within reach inside a vehicle.

Not being a cop puts me at a disadvantage in this discussion, so please do not perceive my retort as flippant.

I don’t.

In this state, we have Possession of Stolen Property, which he would be charged with if in possession of an NCIC-indicated stolen firearm.

Florida use to have the same law. However, the state attorney can’t prove that the person knew it was stolen. Therefore how could he be responsible for being in possession of something stolen if he did not know it was stolen? The state would have to prove prior knowledge, which is almost impossible.

The most cumbersome law it has is registration, currently at a price tag of over $2billion and climbing. Considering how many more guns the US has and sells (that would require registration), ours would be far more expensive.

Canada does things a specific way. It does not have to be as complicated. All I am suggesting is all weapon owners would have to go to their local police/sheriff’s office to register their firearm. You say it is too complicated and too difficult. There are millions upon millions of entries in NCIC. NCIC is not an expensive system. This does not have to require finger prints and background checks such as Canada’s law requires. All I am suggesting is a computer database with a firearms make, model, caliber, owners name and date of purchase. Very simple. In return they would get a title similar to a car. If they choose to sell it they would simply need to go to their local PD and notify them of the sale along with the new owner. Same as with a car. Again, if it can be done with cars (which is a much more complicated and in dept process then I am suggesting) then it can be done with firearms.

I'm sorry I should have been clearer. In FL and WA now, you can sell a gun to your buddy, no paperwork. In CA, you cannot do that. You have to go through a dealer (DROS), and go through the 10 day wait, etc. With registration, for it to work, you'd have to involve a DROS-type transaction just like you DO involve the state for transferring a car (title transfer). So you could sell to a buddy, sort of, in the same way that CA does it. No more private sales to your buddies though.

If the system remained simple enough a wait wouldn’t be necessary. Secondly 10 days will not kill anyone.

If that same gangbanger is carrying a registered, stolen gun not reported and not registered to him, using your model, you can't do anything about it if it's legal to carry a gun not registered to you.

It is better than not being able to do ANYTHING about it at all now. By the same token I am in the same predicament with a stolen car. I can stop a car that is legally registered and stolen (but not yet reported) and not be able to do anything about it. So do you think we should stop registering cars because of it? No that would be silly.

As you note, many times NCIC can't indicate the gun is stolen. If my SIG gets stolen, is registered, and you catch Joe Dirtbag with it there is nothing that can be done. In CA, CCWers (the very few privileged folks) must list firearms ahead of time and cannot carry other firearms on their permit.

Youre confusing CCW permit with registration. If a weapon is registered the serial number would be readily available. A name search could be conducted of the database and the local PD would be able to see the SN of the gun that was stolen. My reasons for a registration is to be able to arrest someone who fails to register their firearm. Take that instance of the vehicle stop. I pull over a group of gang bangers, end up searching and discover a loaded firearm in the glove box. In Florida I can not do anything. In my scenario the officer should make an arrest because the gun was not registered with the state. In addition to the registration charge there (if the law applied in FL) would be a charge for CCW without a permit.

It is in WA state. What I'd like to see is states eliminate the ability to carry a weapon loaded without a CCW, period. I would also like to see a requirement to report stolen guns IMMEDIATELY upon noticing it's absence, within 24 hours with liability for misbehavior if you don't. A requirement should be made to have the s/n available to report. It'd be a lot cheaper in the long run and a lot more successful in my opinion.

Sounds simple but it would not work. You say it would be required to have the SN to report. What about the people who lost their SN or misplaced it. Or it was destroyed in some way (IE: Fire). Do you think those people are going to even report the weapon stolen if they don’t have that? Knowing is they do report it they would face criminal responsibility? I think not.

[deputyryan]

I think that we have to agree to disagree. But I know I had just about the same viewpoint as you. When I was in the military I even wrote an article to a newspaper about it. I made the same basic argument as you. But now that I am on the street my position has slightly changed. I am always concerned with my safety and the safety of my fellow brothers and sisters. And I for one am tired of locking up a gangbanger today (usually on drug charges) and tomorrow they're out doing the same crap. Then when I finally catch them with a firearm my hands are tied. I think that reasonable legislation surrounding firearms is not too much to ask. That's just my two cents.

The public demands action and demands we fix the worlds problems but the government makes it almost impossible.

[SGeringer]

You replied “no”. Im a little confused here.

It is not scary for someone to have a firearm in the car, either a loaded handgun for CCWers, or an unloaded handgun for non-CCWers and unloaded long gun for everyone. In my state, the long gun can't be loaded but a magazine can be stored in the case or around the gun. Hunters in all states carry rifles at some point in their vehicles. That was more my thinking. It's hard for me, in WA, imagining someone being able to carry a loaded rifle especially w/o a CCW (which I realize wouldn't apply for a rifle, but you know what I mean).

The state would have to prove prior knowledge, which is almost impossible

That is definitely unfortunate.

It does not have to be as complicated.

Given how government works and the history of gun registration, it is here I simply cannot agree with you. For instance, the Canadian gun registry has 2000+ employees. The state of FL has about 350,000 CCWers alone, not to mention gun owners that do not have CCWs. There are probably as many if not MORE gun owners in the Gunshine state than in all of Canada. Even if not, let's cut it in half and say that the program would require 1000 employees to administer one state's program. That's expensive. And what if we have to do it nationally? I understand that at first glance it might be simple, but we'd have log a transaction for a) every new or used gun sale from FFL, b) every private transaction, c) every incident where a gun is stolen presumably, d) every move someone makes (like with licensing for autos), e) changes in gun ownership status (felon, DV, mental, etc). Legally speaking, it would not be imaginable that such legislation would go forward without also doing a background check......it would not be politically permissable to simply let someone register a gun, because potentially a person not able to own a gun would do that. So in addition to the clerical work, we have background.

So then, let's say it's in practice. You stop Joe Dirtbag and the gun is registered but not in NCIC as stolen and is otherwise carried legally. You can't do anything. And, as you say, even if it is in NCIC as stolen you cant do anything because you can't prove he knew it and you cant get him on registration because it IS registered. So really, registration is aimed at guns that simply aren't registered, which might be a tiny portion of guns you encounter because so many stolen ones originate in lawful homes. By your own admission, it being stolen doesn't do anything for you. If he's CCWing illegally or a unable to possess, we already have a law for that.

Then we have other issues. If we're still on the small scale (states manage licensing of cars, so apples to apples this is a state project), what about those that can carry in FL on their permits? Do we have "out of state" registration where visitors can register, or an exemption, or do we get rid of reciprocity with other states?

Youre confusing CCW permit with registration. If a weapon is registered the serial number would be readily available. A name search could be conducted of the database and the local PD would be able to see the SN of the gun that was stolen.

No, I did a poor job of posing two options. With registration, again, if someone steals my registered handgun but has a permit or is transporting legally and the gun hasn't been reported yet when you catch him, you can't do anything about it. So the question then becomes, do we make it so you can't carry a gun not registered to YOU like in CA? Based on what you said about not being able to prosecute PSP, any encounter with a registered gun would not prosecutable because the GUN IS REGISTERED. Based on what you say, you could only a) make it so guns carried had to be registered to you, or b) somehow make it so that PSP charges stick, or c) give people a pass that steal registered guns.

Sounds simple but it would not work.

That is too bad. One of my guns being stolen and used to kill an innocent person is a great fear of mine, and I have all my serial numbers in several places and avoid leaving weapons unattended at all costs.

[SGeringer]

I think that we have to agree to disagree. But I know I had just about the same viewpoint as you. When I was in the military I even wrote an article to a newspaper about it. I made the same basic argument as you. But now that I am on the street my position has slightly changed. I am always concerned with my safety and the safety of my fellow brothers and sisters. And I for one am tired of locking up a gangbanger today (usually on drug charges) and tomorrow they're out doing the same crap. Then when I finally catch them with a firearm my hands are tied. I think that reasonable legislation surrounding firearms is not too much to ask. That's just my two cents.

The public demands action and demands we fix the worlds problems but the government makes it almost impossible.

Sorry I didn't see your second post before I posted my other one. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.......I'm not always right by far. It is a shame that the laws are not in your favor.....the idea that you can't get someone on PSP for a stolen gun seems wild to me. It is also unfortunate that so often they are not prosecuted aggressively for felon in possession. If registration could seamlessly make your job easier in my estimation while not affecting CCW or lawful use, I'd be more supportive. I just don't think it's plausible and the risk of use in confiscation is not good to my way of thinking. Either way, stay safe out there.

[Kpdpipes]

SGeringer,

With all due respect I am a conservative as well. But be on the job a while and see if you have the exact same opinion.

I've been OTJ for 20 years, working in one of the more "Festive" areas of NJ, and i would be HAPPY to see CCW for Non-LEO's here. I dont find the thought of Joe Citizen being armed, scary in the least. Every armed Citizen is one less sheep this tired old sheepdog has to watch over.

[deputyryan]

I've been OTJ for 20 years, working in one of the more "Festive" areas of NJ, and i would be HAPPY to see CCW for Non-LEO's here. I dont find the thought of Joe Citizen being armed, scary in the least. Every armed Citizen is one less sheep this tired old sheepdog has to watch over.

I am not saying the state should take away CCW permits or prevent citizens from getting one. So long as they aren’t convicted felons or have prior serious mental conditions. Which is what state law already requires. That and the requirement to qualify with your weapon. I run into good folks all the time on traffic stops who have CCW permits and are carrying. Its not a problem to me either. What I was saying is that its strange for the state to say it is illegal to carry a firearm on your person concealed but then say its okay to conceal it in your car. Even though its still easily accessible. My point is in a nutshell I think firearms should be registered same as an automobile.

[deputyryan]

Given how government works and the history of gun registration, it is here I simply cannot agree with you. For instance, the Canadian gun registry has 2000+ employees. The state of FL has about 350,000 CCWers alone, not to mention gun owners that do not have CCWs. There are probably as many if not MORE gun owners in the Gunshine state than in all of Canada. Even if not, let's cut it in half and say that the program would require 1000 employees to administer one state's program. That's expensive.

There are already states that practice something similar to this. Its almost like comparing apples and oranges. I dont expect the costs to be nearly the same because I dont think a fingerprint check and the works is needed to simply tell the state that you now own "X" gun with serial number "XXXXXXX". The Canadian system is very complicated. I am only suggesting simple registration. By the way. A criminal history check takes only minutes. ALL I am suggesting is it would be helpful for LEOs to be able to utilize a firearm registry.

So then, let's say it's in practice. You stop Joe Dirtbag and the gun is registered but not in NCIC as stolen and is otherwise carried legally. You can't do anything. And, as you say, even if it is in NCIC as stolen you cant do anything because you can't prove he knew it and you cant get him on registration because it IS registered. So really, registration is aimed at guns that simply aren't registered, which might be a tiny portion of guns you encounter because so many stolen ones originate in lawful homes. By your own admission, it being stolen doesn't do anything for you. If he's CCWing illegally or a unable to possess, we already have a law for that.

Well I would at least be able to take the firearm if it is stolen and lable him as a suspect in the theft and try to link him to the scene. But thats not really what were talking about. In the instance you mentioned I would have to say I agree with you. However with the aforementioned in mind I would then say that it should be illegal to carry a concealed firearm that is not registered to you.

and is otherwise carried legally

That is where the problem lies in Florida. IMO it is too easy for someone to carry a firearm legally without a CCW permit. The state basically says anyone can carry a loaded firearm in their glove box. To me that should be considered a concealed weapon and require a CCW permit. If they have the permit that is fine. If someone wants to carry a firearm in their glove box by all means qualify with your weapon and get a permit. And for the record I am not suggesting we make getting permits any more difficult. I think Florida has very good CCW permit requirments. Many folks in FL have CCW permits as well. You only need to qualify with your weapon and not be a felon or have been already been declared mentally disturbed.

Then we have other issues. If we're still on the small scale (states manage licensing of cars, so apples to apples this is a state project), what about those that can carry in FL on their permits? Do we have "out of state" registration where visitors can register, or an exemption, or do we get rid of reciprocity with other states?

Again were mixing permits with registration. There are a number of states that recognize other states CCW permits. But that is not what we are talking about. What were talking about is the simple registration of firearms. All I am suggesting is have a name and address go with the serial number ont he firearm. Its already done with automobiles.

No, I did a poor job of posing two options. With registration, again, if someone steals my registered handgun but has a permit or is transporting legally and the gun hasn't been reported yet when you catch him, you can't do anything about it. So the question then becomes, do we make it so you can't carry a gun not registered to YOU like in CA? Based on what you said about not being able to prosecute PSP, any encounter with a registered gun would not prosecutable because the GUN IS REGISTERED. Based on what you say, you could only a) make it so guns carried had to be registered to you, or b) somehow make it so that PSP charges stick, or c) give people a pass that steal registered guns.

Again just like a car. I can stop a car that is lawfully registered with the state. That car may have been stolen but not yet reported. I will never know and would end up letting the car theif get away without even realizing it. Unfortunatly the same would apply to firearms. No system is perfect but that doesnt mean it isnt useful.

That is too bad. One of my guns being stolen and used to kill an innocent person is a great fear of mine, and I have all my serial numbers in several places and avoid leaving weapons unattended at all costs.

Im glad, but face it. Most people arnt as cautious as you. And there will always be that "act of god" or weird circumstance. I dont think we can hold people criminaly liable for not having their serial number.

[jerseyshorecop]

Alrighty then......I'm sure the aformentioned arguements were valid and persausive if I'd taken the time to read any of them.......lol

Jellybean, Do what you have to and stay safe here in NJ.

PM me if you need help with the details.

[SGeringer]

Lol, twas a good debate. Deputyryan, stay safe out there. We'll agree to disagree.

[Jellybean400]

Alrighty then......I'm sure the aformentioned arguements were valid and persausive if I'd taken the time to read any of them.......lol

Jellybean, Do what you have to and stay safe here in NJ.

PM me if you need help with the details.

Thanks, i will PM you if i think of questions.

I will get something before i go back to work, that's for sure.

I want to make a work complaint, but the Union told me they would probably put ME on a different shift. I dont think that's fair.

[gpd810mertie]

Jb

hey girl...gotta love our unions eh? why should YOU be punished and switched to a different shift for filing a complaint? are you being harrassed by this person while you are at work? if so...i would file an eeo complaint...because it IS managements responsibility to provide a safe work environment for all employees. if you are punished for filing a complaint...put on another shift, reduced hours, etc....you could have some case against the po. but...it does suck when you go to the union for advise...and they don't seem to want to stand behind you.

there is a police supply place in sewell, but not sure if anyone can just buy there. i went with my H and can't remember the name of it. but...usually some of the hunting stores or even dicks sporting goods carry the pepper spray. i have a bottle of the usps issued pepper spray for dogs LOL.

please stay safe girl!

[Jellybean400]

Thanks very much!!

yes, its someone at work. the things he's done so far are things i cant report, but they're creepy nevertheless. i stopped our "friendship," and i did it slowly because i thought he was getting a little weird. youre right about the EEO though.

some people in the union say one thing, while someone else says another. i have to talk to our head guy, and he'll be the one to help me. i'm off right now due to knee treatment, so i'll see what happens when i get back. i just dont want to get put back on Niteshift because of what someone else is doing. bad enough if i need to go on lite duty for my knee they will put me back on Nites! no wonder we go postal! ;-)

thanks again for the store info.