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Saw my first Open Carry dummy

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  • Saw my first Open Carry dummy

    I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd amendment and think that everyone that can pass a background check and certified training should have the option of carrying a firearm.

    The Minnesota law seems to be a misnomer in that I often see it referred to as a "conceal and carry license" But, I don't think it says anything about having it actually concealed.

    I saw this guy out today with his family including young kids. He was wearing shorts and flip flops and a t-shirt that was plenty long enough to conceal his semi auto, but he chose to tuck it behind the weapon. This was at a family restaurant in an affluent suburb.

    I know violence can strike anywhere and at any time and I am all in favor of being able to protect yourself. But open carry makes no sense to me tactically. Why advertise that you are carrying a gun? Why not wear a shirt that says "Take me out first".

    I think some people did not get enough attention growing up or want to seem like a tough guy.

    Do you guys run into much of this?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Long Relief View Post
    I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd amendment and think that everyone that can pass a background check and certified training should have the option of carrying a firearm.

    The Minnesota law seems to be a misnomer in that I often see it referred to as a "conceal and carry license" But, I don't think it says anything about having it actually concealed.

    I saw this guy out today with his family including young kids. He was wearing shorts and flip flops and a t-shirt that was plenty long enough to conceal his semi auto, but he chose to tuck it behind the weapon. This was at a family restaurant in an affluent suburb.

    I know violence can strike anywhere and at any time and I am all in favor of being able to protect yourself. But open carry makes no sense to me tactically. Why advertise that you are carrying a gun? Why not wear a shirt that says "Take me out first".

    I think some people did not get enough attention growing up or want to seem like a tough guy.

    Do you guys run into much of this?

    There are no documented cases that support your "take me out first" argument. I can however personally attest to open carry being a visible deterrent.

    Having had the discussion with a close personal friend, he challenged me to open carry for a week while I was off duty. One day while walking into a gas station I encountered a very aggressive pan handler. Dude approached from my left side. I told him I had no cash. He insisted that I should have at least a dollar and if not insisted that I could afford to give him whatever loose change I had on me. I told him several times to pound sand. He then walked in front of me where he was able to see my holstered sidearm. The man asked "is that real"? I advised him that it was in his best interest that he step out of my way and allow me to pass. He did without further incident. When I exited the store, he was gone.

    Believe what you like, but that day I was convinced that open carry by law abiding citizens isn't as bad as a lot of LEO make it out to be. I've even encountered a few in the course of performing my duties. Once they realize that I wasn't concerned about infringing upon their rights, they were actually pretty pleasant and quite helpful.

    Other than open carrying a firearm, was there any reason for you to express your prejudices against this man? Was he acting like a tool? If not, and as long as he was in compliance with local laws, why not give him the benefit of the doubt?
    Getting shot hurts! Don't under estimate the power of live ammo. A .22LR can kill you! I personally feel that it's best to avoid being shot by any caliber. Your vest may stop the bullet, but you'll still get a nice bruise or other injury to remember the experience.

    Comment


    • #3
      Open carry makes you a tool...in my personal opinion. If you don't like it, I don't care so don't bother trying to tell me all your stories about panhandlers being warded off - I don't care, that's why it's called an opinion.

      Just because there are "no documented cases" of OC'ers doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have yet to encounter someone who open carries that isn't a tool slingin' the "cuz I'm an American and it's my rights and tactics be damned!!" reason for OC.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by atc556 View Post
        Open carry makes you a tool...in my personal opinion. If you don't like it, I don't care so don't bother trying to tell me all your stories about panhandlers being warded off - I don't care, that's why it's called an opinion.

        Just because there are "no documented cases" of OC'ers doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have yet to encounter someone who open carries that isn't a tool slingin' the "cuz I'm an American and it's my rights and tactics be damned!!" reason for OC.
        I know several who are very well respected law abiding citizens. Sounds like you could get out more.
        Getting shot hurts! Don't under estimate the power of live ammo. A .22LR can kill you! I personally feel that it's best to avoid being shot by any caliber. Your vest may stop the bullet, but you'll still get a nice bruise or other injury to remember the experience.

        Comment


        • #5
          law abiding citizens can often be toolbags. FYI

          Comment


          • #6
            I have only seen one or two people ever in Minnesota open carrying, and it was always in a place where it was an effective non issue (i.e. Fleet Farm).
            Originally posted by Michigan
            Now that you mention it, who are you?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by atc556 View Post
              Open carry makes you a tool...in my personal opinion. If you don't like it, I don't care so don't bother trying to tell me all your stories about panhandlers being warded off - I don't care, that's why it's called an opinion.

              Just because there are "no documented cases" of OC'ers doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have yet to encounter someone who open carries that isn't a tool slingin' the "cuz I'm an American and it's my rights and tactics be damned!!" reason for OC.
              Great.....cite your stats that show that OC makes you a target. Go ahead, I'll wait.

              Sounds like somebody that is afraid to see a gun anywhere that isnt on a cops belt to me.

              Originally posted by atc556 View Post
              law abiding citizens can often be toolbags. FYI
              Yeah, so can some other... people.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by kermit315 View Post
                Great.....cite your stats that show that OC makes you a target. Go ahead, I'll wait.

                Sounds like somebody that is afraid to see a gun anywhere that isnt on a cops belt to me.



                Yeah, so can some other... people.

                Never really understood why just the mention of open carry and 2nd amendment instantly sparks a huge debate and why so many people on here are so quick to attack fellow cops just for offering an opinion.

                I don't think there are many cops that don't support the right of law abiding citizens to carry a weapon if they qualify and are trained. The point is: 1. Obviously violent criminals carry weapons too, and 2. An off-duty cop out with his/her family doesn't have any way of knowing if this person walking around a restaurant or Fleet Farm is a law abiding citizen carrying a gun out in the open or a dirt bag looking to do harm. Law abiding citizens choosing to open carry don't carry a sign that says, "no reason to worry, I'm a good guy."

                My point is: if you qualify for a permit to carry and are a law abiding citizen, why not just wear it concealed and don't draw attention to yourself. That isn't infringing on your right to carry and still allows you to take action if you need to...but it doesn't alarm other law abiding citizens or off-duty cops who now have to worry what you're all about and why you're carrying out in the open. Just like these folks that are carrying AR-15's and other high capacity weapons to Target or McDonalds just because they can.

                There's a lot of things you CAN do in life but it doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULD or that it meets the standard of common sense.

                Just my opinion
                Last edited by TrueBlueMN; 08-22-2014, 02:21 PM. Reason: Spelling error
                The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "TrueBlueMN" on Officer.com.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TrueBlueMN View Post
                  Never really understood why just the mention of open carry and 2nd amendment instantly sparks a huge debate and why so many people on here are so quick to attack fellow cops just for offering an opinion.

                  I don't think there are many cops that don't support the right of law abiding citizens to carry a weapon if they qualify and are trained. The point is: 1. Obviously violent criminals carry weapons too, and 2. An off-duty cop out with his/her family doesn't have any way of knowing if this person walking around a restaurant or Fleet Farm is a law abiding citizen carrying a gun out in the open or a dirt bag looking to do harm. Law abiding citizens choosing to open carry don't carry a sign that says, "no reason to worry, I'm a good guy."

                  My point is: if you qualify for a permit to carry and are a law abiding citizen, why not just wear it concealed and don't draw attention to yourself. That isn't infringing on your right to carry and still allows you to take action if you need to...but it doesn't alarm other law abiding citizens or off-duty cops who now have to worry what you're all about and why you're carrying out in the open. Just like these folks that are carrying AR-15's and other high capacity weapons to Target or McDonalds just because they can.

                  There's a lot of things you CAN do in life but it doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULD or that it meets the standard of common sense.

                  Just my opinion
                  I think it is because it is such a polarizing issue.....but that is just me.

                  I get your take on it, and respect it. I have no problem with OC'ers. I look at it this way: If you are OCing in a semi decent holster, and I have no reason to think you are doing anything wrong, what is the issue? gang bangers/dirt bags typically have baggage and wont OC anyway. Also, you are not any safer if a dirtbag decides to CC, but now you do not know if they have a weapon or not.

                  Where I currently am OC is legal, and fairly common. There just are not a bunch of issues with it. The issues tend to come from people that either A) have never been around guns and their main source of exposure besides tv is the academy, and B) those that think that LE are the only ones that should have guns at all. Group A usually comes around, group B.....varies.

                  However, I have a problem with people, officers included, spouting rhetoric that OC makes people targets or getting down on people for 'exercising their rights' and calling them tools for it.

                  Reasons tend to vary as well. Some people do not conceal well. Some people like full size weapons. Sometimes it is hot as hell and OC is easier than CC. Some just like it better.

                  Now, the guys with the AR's in Chipotle, etc, I think are just stirring a pot for their 15 minutes of fame. I think it is going to have a bad outcome in driving bad corporate policy, but that is politics, not law.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kermit315 View Post
                    Where I currently am OC is legal, and fairly common.
                    In areas where it is legal, common and generally accepted, it is a good thing. In other areas, it causes a bunch of crap; this the wing-nuts to go into education-mode and try to teach the rest of us, who are obviously ignorant.
                    Originally posted by kermit315 View Post
                    There just are not a bunch of issues with it. The issues tend to come from people that either A) have never been around guns and their main source of exposure besides tv is the academy, and B) those that think that LE are the only ones that should have guns at all.
                    IMHO, everyone who is not a felon, not a mental case or otherwise a menace to society, should be able to possess and carry a firearm.

                    Originally posted by kermit315 View Post
                    However, I have a problem with people, officers included, spouting rhetoric that OC makes people targets or getting down on people for 'exercising their rights' and calling them tools for it.
                    I don't have any statistics to cite, but if I were a criminal (and I always try to think like one lol), the first person I would target would be some chubby pud with a pearl-handle, nickel finished 1911 strapped to his side. I would take his gun away from him, take his wallet and may or may not kill him depending on the situation. One less good guy with a gun on the street and one more bad guy that has one.

                    If EVERYONE carried open, it would be a much more polite society. My state has been the hold-out for a lot of years and has prevented good, honest people from being able to defend themselves. I am so happy that we finally have concealed carry in Illinois.


                    “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

                    Miyamoto Musashi

                    “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

                    George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by slamdunc View Post
                      In areas where it is legal, common and generally accepted, it is a good thing. In other areas, it causes a bunch of crap; this the wing-nuts to go into education-mode and try to teach the rest of us, who are obviously ignorant.
                      IMHO, everyone who is not a felon, not a mental case or otherwise a menace to society, should be able to possess and carry a firearm.

                      I don't have any statistics to cite, but if I were a criminal (and I always try to think like one lol), the first person I would target would be some chubby pud with a pearl-handle, nickel finished 1911 strapped to his side. I would take his gun away from him, take his wallet and may or may not kill him depending on the situation. One less good guy with a gun on the street and one more bad guy that has one.

                      If EVERYONE carried open, it would be a much more polite society. My state has been the hold-out for a lot of years and has prevented good, honest people from being able to defend themselves. I am so happy that we finally have concealed carry in Illinois.


                      I am originally from Illinois (until I joined the Navy)....so I know all about it...haha. I get your perspective on it, but take states like AZ and NM. They have a very large OC population, and it just doesn't happen. Even here in VA I don't see it. I guess one theory is that for the one you see, how many are you not seeing?

                      I do agree also that an armed society is a polite society.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "If your going to carry it, you damn well better be willing to use it".

                        A few years ago I saw a guy at a car show in St. Paul, he was shirtless, in cut off shorts with a stainless .44 magnum with 8" barrel in a hip holster....

                        I think you all had good points above. The few MN people I've come across C/C while on duty have always presented their C/C permit and told me where the weapon is, if it's not on their person. They were all very supportive towards L.E. and understood the importance of how to act with Police while C/C. I've also had talks how explaining that Police are not out to 'get' their guns, but that at the same time we have a right to be safe and go home safe, just as they do to carry.

                        I'm sure many of you have seen the people on YouTube who go for a stroll in an open carry state with an AR-15 or AK-47 variant slung over their shoulder, iphones at the ready...

                        I have 2 friends who C/C. One always keeps it concealed, he has a good build for it and its a mid size Glock thats not too bulky. He does not advertise it, hes been in Security and L.E. He's observant and situationaly aware. My second friend usually carrys open, with a Sig .45. He's pretty mild mannered, but becomes 10 feet tall with the sig on. He has no problem challenging anyone who gives him a slanted look. I told him I hope he's got a good insurance policy to pay everyone while he sits in prison. He feels all he has to say are the magic words "I felt I was in danger..."

                        I hope that C/C classes try and instill the gravity/responsibility of carrying a firearm. We drag one around on our duty belts every day and tend to take them forgranted at times, but our lives and others depend on them. I take my Glock down and clean and check it once a month, when springs broke or wore out I spent my own money and replaced them (dont get me started, my boss thinks guns cant break or wear out, esp Glocks).

                        I tell people to go through the conceal carry class with what they are going to use/carry. Why qualify with a .380 or 9mm if your going to carry a .45, .357 or .44 mag? Know what your going to use inside and out, take down, assembly, malfunction-clearing. As for the gravity of it, I don't know how many people really grasp the idea of taking someones life. Most seem to think it's a short chat with the cops like some 1940's film, or an old western where the Sheriff's says you were good to shoot, and thats it, put on your white hat. Aside from the legal side, you then have the civil. I think one or two insurance firms may offer some type for C/C people. Again most people are very un-educated about how low the burden of proof is in civil suits.

                        I'm a gun owner and collector, and I support the 2nd ammendment with common sense.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LT1Chevy Cop View Post
                          "If your going to carry it, you damn well better be willing to use it".
                          That goes without saying.

                          Originally posted by LT1Chevy Cop View Post
                          A few years ago I saw a guy at a car show in St. Paul, he was shirtless, in cut off shorts with a stainless .44 magnum with 8" barrel in a hip holster.
                          When he was in high school, the other guys in the locker room made fun of his shortcomings and he found the 'grown up' way to compensate for it.

                          Originally posted by LT1Chevy Cop View Post
                          My second friend usually carrys open, with a Sig .45. He's pretty mild mannered, but becomes 10 feet tall with the sig on. He has no problem challenging anyone who gives him a slanted look.
                          Why would they give him "a slanted look"? Could it be the huge chip on his shoulder?

                          Originally posted by LT1Chevy Cop View Post
                          I hope that C/C classes try and instill the gravity/responsibility of carrying a firearm.
                          We can only hope that it does, but as you and I both know, one cannot teach common-sense.

                          Originally posted by LT1Chevy Cop View Post
                          I'm a gun owner and collector, and I support the 2nd ammendment with common sense.
                          Amen! Same here, but again, common-sense is sometimes a rare commodity.

                          “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

                          Miyamoto Musashi

                          “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

                          George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You have obviously had VERY different interactions with OC'ers. I've dealt with about 5. 4 were *******s and started rambling about the 2nd amendment and 'murica and everything under the sun. The last guy was very polite, told me he open carried because he wanted people to know he had it and was receptive to my suggestion it may make him the first target.

                            Your snipe about "spouting off rhetoric" regarding OC is no different than YOU spouting off rhetoric in support of OC. It's your opinion, not a fact. Sorry bud. You can find a dissenting opinion against OC for every one that supports it, so I don't care about your cries for "stats" showing OC'ers are the first targets.

                            I'll explain this very carefully again because you obviously didn't get it the first time...I do not care if you like my opinion regarding OC'ers. I really don't. You're a nobody to me and I don't have time to worry about your feelings being hurt.

                            I also agree that every person that is legally allowed to own a gun should be able to, and you can carry it HOWEVER YOU WANT! I don't care. I'm just telling you, my opinion is if you open carry, you are a tool. It's that simple, it's that cut-and-dry. If you don't like it, I don't care...that's what makes America great, we can have our own opinions.

                            The CCW people I have run into aren't all well behaved and non-toolbags either so don't go twisting that around. A guy CC and wearing 5.11 boots, khakis, a 5.11 polo, and Oakley shades is equally asking to be "made" as carrying a gun also

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by atc556 View Post
                              You have obviously had VERY different interactions with OC'ers. I've dealt with about 5. 4 were *******s and started rambling about the 2nd amendment and 'murica and everything under the sun. The last guy was very polite, told me he open carried because he wanted people to know he had it and was receptive to my suggestion it may make him the first target.

                              Your snipe about "spouting off rhetoric" regarding OC is no different than YOU spouting off rhetoric in support of OC. It's your opinion, not a fact. Sorry bud. You can find a dissenting opinion against OC for every one that supports it, so I don't care about your cries for "stats" showing OC'ers are the first targets.

                              I'll explain this very carefully again because you obviously didn't get it the first time...I do not care if you like my opinion regarding OC'ers. I really don't. You're a nobody to me and I don't have time to worry about your feelings being hurt.

                              I also agree that every person that is legally allowed to own a gun should be able to, and you can carry it HOWEVER YOU WANT! I don't care. I'm just telling you, my opinion is if you open carry, you are a tool. It's that simple, it's that cut-and-dry. If you don't like it, I don't care...that's what makes America great, we can have our own opinions.

                              The CCW people I have run into aren't all well behaved and non-toolbags either so don't go twisting that around. A guy CC and wearing 5.11 boots, khakis, a 5.11 polo, and Oakley shades is equally asking to be "made" as carrying a gun also
                              You know, at first I was thinking I was too harsh with my original response to you. But, nope, I wasn't.

                              You're not a tool though. You're the whole box.

                              Comment

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