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Where are we prohibited from carrying off duty?

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  • Where are we prohibited from carrying off duty?

    With HR218 coming into place in the last couple years, we've all got it pretty easy to carry wherever we want as long as we're not wasted. Where does the state of Iowa specifically prohibited off duty officers from carrying weapons?

  • #2
    Originally posted by CCB2002
    I know some private property dont allow us...like some hospitals in DSM. But what is the the HR218 thing you are talking about?


    it's a federal law allowing LE's to carry purdy much anywhere

    http://www.grandlodgefop.org/legisla...8/hr218faq.pdf

    http://www.chicagofop.org/HR218/218_Shortform.pdf

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    • #3
      EDIT:

      I re-read HR 218 and it just plain looks like we can almost carry anywhere we want, since the bill basically exempts us from most state laws unless they apply to government property or state laws which allow private areas to prohibit us from carrying.

      I guess the reason I'm asking is I'm unable to verify whether or not the Code of Iowa specifically allows private properties to prohibit the carrying of weapons. I know people can post 'No Guns' at the door all they want, but is there anything under state law that says that the 'no guns' sign is now legally keeping an off-duty cop from carrying inside? I know a lot of places post signs, I just don't know if the state code makes those signs legally binding.

      If the code says something like "any private area can prohibit guns inside or on their property", then we're screwed there. If it doesn't say anything, then even places with 'no guns' signs don't apply to us. I know the Federal law trumps the state law that says we couldn't carry on school grounds.
      Last edited by 86-43; 02-17-2008, 08:28 PM. Reason: having a hard time explaining what I'm looking for.

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      • #4
        Casino's are off limits unless you're on duty. I'll get the specific reference when I get into work tonight.

        Iowa Administrative Rule 491-5.4
        5.4(6) Firearms possession within casino.
        a. No patron or employee of the licensee, including the security department members, shall possess
        or be permitted to possess any pistol or firearm within a casino without the express written approval
        of the administrator unless:
        (1) The person is a peace officer, on duty, acting in the peace officer’s official capacity; or
        (2) The person is a peace officer possessing a valid peace officer permit to carry weapons who is
        employed by the licensee and who is authorized by the administrator to possess such pistol or firearm
        while acting on behalf of the licensee within that casino.
        b. Each casino licensee shall post in a conspicuous location at each entrance to the casino a sign
        that may be easily read stating, “Possession of any firearm within the casino without the express written
        permission of the Iowa racing and gaming commission is prohibited”.
        Last edited by Russrad25; 02-21-2008, 04:42 AM. Reason: Cite
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        • #5
          Originally posted by 86-43 View Post
          I guess the reason I'm asking is I'm unable to verify whether or not the Code of Iowa specifically allows private properties to prohibit the carrying of weapons. I know people can post 'No Guns' at the door all they want, but is there anything under state law that says that the 'no guns' sign is now legally keeping an off-duty cop from carrying inside? I know a lot of places post signs, I just don't know if the state code makes those signs legally binding.

          If the code says something like "any private area can prohibit guns inside or on their property", then we're screwed there. If it doesn't say anything, then even places with 'no guns' signs don't apply to us. I know the Federal law trumps the state law that says we couldn't carry on school grounds.
          Originally posted by CCB2002
          We should be able to carry where ever we want with proof of updated credentials.

          While HR 218 states that it shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property, let me suggest that you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

          Because private property is just that - privately owned, the persons in possession have the right to decide who may or may not be on the property and under what terms and conditions entry will be allowed. That's why you see signs at businesses that say things like: No Roller-skating or Rollerblading allowed; No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service; or in this case, no firearms. Just as you can dictate the terms and conditions under which a guest may enter your property, other property owners (businesses) reserve that same right with respect to weapons, even if there is no state law specifically allowing them to prohibit people from bringing firearms onto the premises.

          Look at this another way. You get a call of a trespasser at a $20 a meal restaurant. On your arrival, the manager points out a shirtless man (bare chested) seated in the middle of the dining area. The manager explains that it is a policy of the restaurant that all diners must wear shirts. He says he explained this to the individual and asked him to leave, but the individual refuses to comply. There is no law prohibiting men from being bare chested in public. There is no law allowing restaurants to require diners to wear shirts. However, there is a law against trespassing. Do you tell the restaurant manager there is nothing you can do and leave, or do you take whatever action is necessary to remove the person who is there without permission and now trespassing?

          I am going to bet that if you got into a p--sing contest with a business owner over your right to carry off duty on his premises by virtue of your employment as a peace officer with the XXX police department, and he made a complaint with your agency, that your department would decide that his rights as a private property owner trump your rights as an off duty cop seeking permission to enter his premises, and that maybe you were out of line by pushing the issue. Just a thought.
          Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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          • #6
            I wonder why a private property/business owner would not want an off duty PO to carry a weapon in their business. I guess one should consider if they actually want to patronize a business that says they do not want an off duty PO to carry a weapon while in/at their business. If "John Doe" wants to attack/shoot the PO that arrested him last week and he knows that "XXX" establishment does not allow weapons even for off duty PO then all he has to do is wait for the Officer to go to that place of business. You make a very valid point though concerning the "p--sing" contest. However, I do not agree with not being able to carry a weapon in certain places off duty. I do not even believe a judge should be able to say that you can not carry a weapon in his/her courtroom unless in uniform. I guess the first time we encounter an Officer being shot inside a courtroom, the lawsuit to follow should take care of the problem even though it will be a little late.
            Last edited by tpd86-44; 02-20-2008, 01:46 AM. Reason: typo

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            • #7
              Originally posted by tpd86-44 View Post
              I wonder why a private property/business owner would not want an off duty PO to carry a weapon in their business. I guess one should consider if they actually want to patronize a business that says they do not want an off duty PO to carry a weapon while in/at their business. If "John Doe" wants to attack/shoot the PO that arrested him last week and he knows that "XXX" establishment does not allow weapons even for off duty PO then all he has to do is wait for the Officer to go to that place of business. You make a very valid point though concerning the "p--sing" contest. However, I do not agree with not being able to carry a weapon in certain places off duty. I do not even believe a judge should be able to say that you can not carry a weapon in his/her courtroom unless in uniform. I guess the first time we encounter an Officer being shot inside a courtroom, the lawsuit to follow should take care of the problem even though it will be a little late.
              I agree - if you feel that strongly about not going to places that prohibit off duty officers from carrying, then by all means, make your feelings known by withholding your patronage and money.

              In California, you mainly see this prohibition at theme parks like Disney and Magic Mountain. Secondarily, you will find it at high traffic bars, nightclubs and concert venues where off duty cops work as plain clothes security. When you have lots of armed, off duty cops as patrons, who don't know who the armed, plain clothes security are, and vice versa, it can really gum things up, hence the prohibition.

              I have only seen a courtroom prohibition against weapons for off duty, or on duty plain clothes officers in my state's Supreme and Appellate Courts. It's mainly because these courts hear some rather controversial cases that, from time to time, tend to draw unruly spectators. As a result, the court sometimes has armed, plain clothes security mixed in with the crowd. Were an incident to occur and an armed, off duty, or on duty plain clothes officer from an outside agency get into the mix, court security staff would have no way to promptly determine who they were and things could fall apart rather quickly.

              As a side note, the state fairgrounds in San Diego tried to prohibit off duty and retired officers from carrying on their grounds, which are public (rather than private) property. One of the local POAs took them to court and it was determined that the fairgrounds could not administratively deny officers a right granted them as a matter of law by an act of the legislature.
              Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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              • #8
                In Iowa at least, school buses are off limits too. At my first department, three of the officers were part time bus drivers and they could not carry weapons on them. That was about 7 years ago though. Probably out of fear that they'd 'discipline' some needy kid.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by L-1 View Post
                  While HR 218 states that it shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property, let me suggest that you are looking at this from the wrong angle.
                  So, what I can't find out is if Iowa even HAS a law that permits private properties from disallowing concealed carry. Obviously there are other state laws, such as the school buses and casinos that we must abide by, but what if a mall has a 'no guns' sign on the door. Is that legally binding under Iowa law or just against the property rules?


                  EDIT: Good to see you made it on, 44.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by L-1 View Post
                    I am going to bet that if you got into a p--sing contest with a business owner over your right to carry off duty on his premises by virtue of your employment as a peace officer with the XXX police department, and he made a complaint with your agency, that your department would decide that his rights as a private property owner trump your rights as an off duty cop seeking permission to enter his premises, and that maybe you were out of line by pushing the issue. Just a thought.
                    Not in Missouri. My position as a LEO lets me carry concealed anywhere I want. When they wrote the laws they exempted us from just about everything.
                    A Veteran is someone who at one point in their life wrote a blank check made payable to The United States of America, for an amount up to, and including their life. That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today, who no longer understand that fact!

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