Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Need code or case law on two things

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Need code or case law on two things

    I'm trying to find the case law or code section that covers the following topics.

    1. Do the passengers of a vehicle have an obligation to itentify themselves if requested during a traffic stop.

    2. Is everyone in the vehicle detained during a traffic stop or can a passenger simply get out of the car and leave. Does the traffic stop in and of itself justify the temporary detention of all occupants of the vehicle. If it does that may answer question 1.

    In both these cases it is a routine traffic stop (tag light, speeding, tail light, etc...). I have no reason to keep the passengers other than I'm still conducting the traffic stop.

    I've found some bits and peices in Lexis-Nexis but I'm trying to find something more definitive.

    Please don't reply with speculation or opinion. I don't want this to turn into another search and seizure thread.

    Thanks in advance.
    Due to the Juvenile bickering and annoying trolling committed by members of this forum I have started an igore list. If your name is listed below I can't see you.

    CityCopDC, Fire Moose, Carbonfiberfoot, Damiansolomon

  • #2
    These articles offer some insight and examples of case law:

    http://www.policeone.com/legal/artic...Court-answers/

    http://www.patc.com/weeklyarticles/t...ssengers.shtml

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you, thats what I'm looking for.

      I'll assume that by virtue of everyone being detained everyone has a legal obligation to identify themselves.

      I'm trying to find info on the passengers obligation to identify themselves to law enforcement. Common sense says yes.
      Due to the Juvenile bickering and annoying trolling committed by members of this forum I have started an igore list. If your name is listed below I can't see you.

      CityCopDC, Fire Moose, Carbonfiberfoot, Damiansolomon

      Comment


      • #4
        In regards to the passenger being required to show identification, I would say it would depend on the circumstances of the traffic stop. I can't think of the court ruling off the top of my head at the moment, but I've spoken to officers in other departments that operate under this precedent.

        Say I stop a car for making an improper turn. The only person responsible for the infraction is the driver. What basis do I have to demand the passenger, who has done nothing to warrant my attention other than being along for the ride, to show me identification? I can ask him for identification, and can play word games and see if he'll offer up identification, but I can't tell him he needs to give me his license.

        Simply put, he can say no. He doesn't have to talk to me. Same way anyone walking past me while I'm on foot isn't obligated to talk to me just because I decided to talk to them. If I don't have ARS or PC, you have your rights to not answer any questions.

        Now, if I stopped a vehicle that fits the description of the get-away car in a bank robbery, then yes, I can demand the passengers give their identification. I have ARS to believe they committed a crime and will get identification from them.

        Comment


        • #5
          See Maryland vs Wilson

          We discussed this topic back in Jan. here's the link there are some good links included in the post's.

          http://forums.officer.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=110967

          Comment


          • #6
            I see alot of this in interdiction stops. I had passengers refuse to talk and are in such a hurry that they ask if they can walk off (even on the interstate) since the driver is in control of the vehicle and "there is no reason" for them to be detained. This is a MAJOR clue that something is WRONG.
            Lets hold hands and sing "We are the world."

            Comment


            • #7
              Passenger is not required to show ID unless he has committed a violation, IIRC

              Passengers are not free to leave during a TS.

              No case law handy right now, but Im almost certain that Im correct.

              See Fordman's post. He's dead nutz on the money.

              Comment


              • #8
                ^ you are correct sir =) passenger not required to ID themselves unless you suspect them of something but they are not free to leave the stop.
                Perseverate In Pugna

                Comment


                • #9
                  Fordman & 11b101st,

                  See Case law HIIBEL v. NEVADA U.S. Supreme Court

                  "By a 5-4 majority, the U.S. Supreme Court upholds a Nevada Stop
                  and Identify statute (Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 1968) and holds that
                  people do not have a constitutional right to refuse to tell law
                  enforcement officers their names. Requiring someone to give police
                  their name violates neither the Fourth Amendment nor the Fifth
                  Amendment"

                  Also, It just so happened that I received a complaint because I asked for the ID of the passengers. My Lt gave them case law that said we can ID every one in the vehicle. I will try to get it for you. (not sure if the one above is it).

                  TC
                  Last edited by tcode3; 09-15-2009, 01:56 PM.
                  Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. - Sydney J. Harris

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Narco View Post
                    ^ you are correct sir =) passenger not required to ID themselves unless you suspect them of something but they are not free to leave the stop.
                    I agree. I would also look at PA v Mimms (I think). That is about ordering occupants in or out of vehicle during stop.
                    "Would I ever leave this company? Look, I'm all about loyalty. In fact, I feel like part of what I'm being paid for here is my loyalty. But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly, I'm going wherever they value loyalty the most. " --Dwight K Schrute (The Office)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tcode3 View Post
                      Fordman & 11b101st,

                      See Case law HIIBEL v. NEVADA U.S. Supreme Court

                      "By a 5-4 majority, the U.S. Supreme Court upholds a Nevada Stop
                      and Identify statute (Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 1968) and holds that
                      people do not have a constitutional right to refuse to tell law
                      enforcement officers their names. Requiring someone to give police
                      their name violates neither the Fourth Amendment nor the Fifth
                      Amendment"

                      Also, It just so happened that I received a complaint because I asked for the ID of the passengers. My Lt gave them case law that said we can ID every one in the vehicle. I will try to get it for you. (not sure if the one above is it).

                      TC
                      This is what I was looking for. It makes sense.
                      If you have justification to detain someone, be it for RS, PC, or for officer safety, it stands to reason you should also be able to know who you are detaining.
                      As long as we have a justifiable reason for the stop we should have a justifiable reason to at a minimum identify everyone, if for nothing else as witnesses to the incident or stop.

                      At leawst thats my thinking but I wanted some case law to verify.
                      Due to the Juvenile bickering and annoying trolling committed by members of this forum I have started an igore list. If your name is listed below I can't see you.

                      CityCopDC, Fire Moose, Carbonfiberfoot, Damiansolomon

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I just read Hiibel V. Nevada and there's one catch. Nevada is a "stop and identify" state.
                        Is Georgia a stop and identify state. If not we're right back at square one. Also, in that case Hiibel was the person who was being investigated, he wasn't a passenger or bystander. They had RS that he was involved so that satisfied 4th amendment requirment.
                        Due to the Juvenile bickering and annoying trolling committed by members of this forum I have started an igore list. If your name is listed below I can't see you.

                        CityCopDC, Fire Moose, Carbonfiberfoot, Damiansolomon

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          After reviewing everyones statements and looking up Georgia "stop and identify" statute it's becoming clear that unless you have some RS that extends to the passengers you may be able to detain them for the stop but they don't have to identify themselves. Their detainment is strictly for the officers safety and only extends to the point of citing the driver.

                          Ga's stop and identify falls under loitering and prowling where you have RS that this person is in an area he shouldn't be. 16-11-36(b).

                          16-11-36. Loitering or prowling.

                          Statute text
                          (a) A person commits the offense of loitering or prowling when he is in a place at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.
                          (b) Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon the appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstances make it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this Code section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself and explain his presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this Code section if the law enforcement officer failed to comply with the foregoing procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person was true and would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.
                          Due to the Juvenile bickering and annoying trolling committed by members of this forum I have started an igore list. If your name is listed below I can't see you.

                          CityCopDC, Fire Moose, Carbonfiberfoot, Damiansolomon

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Narco View Post
                            ^ you are correct sir =) passenger not required to ID themselves unless you suspect them of something but they are not free to leave the stop.
                            Danke.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Always look for evidence of other violations/crimes beyond what the reason for the stop is. Chances are if you suspect something is wrong you can find something which will justify you asking for ID from all parties in the vehicle. You make a stop for a minor violation, smell alcohol coming from the rear passenger seat, maybe you should ask passengers for ID to see if they are legal drinking age. Passenger smoking and looks underage -ask for ID. Driver has no license on person, ask passengers if they have a license or photo ID. Explain that people sometimes give false information and tell them you want to make sure they are telling you the truth. I believe most people will gladly had over their ID if you know how to talk to them without getting on their bad side.
                              Last edited by lifesagarden; 09-17-2009, 12:54 PM.
                              Lets hold hands and sing "We are the world."

                              Comment

                              MR300x250 Tablet

                              Collapse

                              What's Going On

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 6337 users online. 377 members and 5960 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 26,947 at 07:36 PM on 12-29-2019.

                              Welcome Ad

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X