Another unfortunate shooting by Inglewood PD?

[DOAcop38]

Still reeling from an officer involved shooting of unarmed 19 yr old Michael Byoune in May of 2008 (officers were at the intersection of Crenshaw and Manchester when they believed they were coming under fire from individuals running from a local hamburger stand-same youths,including victim Byoune were also fleeing from the shooting), The Inglewood PD was involved in another critical shooting when officers responded to an apt complex to investigate a domestic violence call- The officer involved in the shooting - a 5 yr "vet", entered what they believed to be the location of the call and encountered a single male occupant(Kevin Wicks,age 38) ;according to reports ,Wicks was armed and raised a handgun toward officers and was shot once,but later died at a nearby hospital.According to local news reports,and interviews from Family members, Wicks lived alone,and there has been no further info as to whether the location the officers entered was the actual source of the call.

Inglewood Police officers work the roughest city in the southbay,bordering hard parts of South Central L.A. grungy Hawthorne,and poverty stricken Lennox. But with all the problems, the city of Inglewood has made a significant comeback in terms of investments, real estate and commercial business growth.alot of young applicants,looking for "action" but not wanting the politics of nearby LAPD, have sought out IPD as a viable source.the only concern I have is that IPD,like alot of local depts, has a very "young" cadre of officers(in terms of OTJ experience).This seems to be a "problem" in almost every Dept I know across So.Calif-including my own dept.If crime is DOWN in So.Calif,what is the preception of it ,as well as how to deal with it by the younger generation of officers? Is there a deficiency in the transitioning of experience from the academy instruction to field operations? Do younger officers have to confront more serious crime than officers of earlier generations?

I believe the officer responded based on the way he was trained and his perception of his own personal safety. Local "activists" like Earl Ofari hutchinson ( local news commentator and FATHER of street thugs) and Naji Ali( former jail bird/gang member) have claimed that this officer may have been involved in the seperate May 2008 shooting and should be in jail for murder-(go figure).I hope that this is well investigated and that satisfactory means to support both the family of the victim and the officer involved are done...

[nobodyjr]

I think I missing the source of the controversy? Someone pulled a gun on a cop and they killed him with one round. That sounds pretty black and white to me. I don't see how that outcome would be any different from Law Enforcement 100 years ago, and LE today, or in 10 years. Pull a gun on a cop and you get shot.

I'm not a vet so it's hard to answer your bottom questions... but for my particular agency, I would like to see less academy training and more field training. Field training is where people learn to be the police, not so much in a classroom. Things keep being added to the academy, it's not reasonable for the average adult to be expected to apply small details they learned several months prior. Especially when they've never seen them applied in a real life setting, or used them past the test.

I also think in service training is weak and horribly underfunded.

[DOAcop38]

What I think is a possible scenario for the shooting- The officer arrived, believed they were atr the right location,and found the door open- they entered slowly and verbally Id'ed themselves- like alot of folks in the inner city- people "claim" to be alot of things to try and get in your home( a guy tried to claim he was a "delivery person" to get into my gandfather house once).The victim-wicks armed himself,not believing he was confronting the police UNTIL he came face to face with the officers- the officers,based on the radio call and upon coming into contact with an ARMED individual,felt threatened and fired- it may well be a tragedy, but it is also somtething I don't think anyone of us would want to face..........

[Berlioz]

Before I comment, I will say since I wasnt there, I wont second guess or judge the officers involved. Every situation is different and actions should be based on the totality of the circumstances...but I do believe the shooting was righteous and most likely would have reacted the same way. Since Ive given the suspect plenty of notice, now its him whose gambling whether not we are the police or imposters. In my opinion, if there is a muzzle of a gun pointing at you, there is now no other option....unless maybe you are behind some immediate, good cover to allow for further verbalization. I would think even LAPD's commision would rule that a good shoot, and thats really the most important thing. I would rather go to sleep think although I may have taken an innocent life, I acted when I needed to and am alive to go home vs hesitating in a volitle situation and questioning my ability to pull the trigger when the time comes.

With that being said, I would have handled things differenty....Im on a DV call and obs an open door. Without an immediate need to enter (screaming/yelling person, signs of physical abuse, or other "exigent circumstances") I have time on my side. I verbalize and ID myself. Whats unclear is if the person is verbally interacting with the officers or if he is hiding away in a room somewhere....the point is I would make a strong effort to call the person(s) outside if time is a luxury. Heck, if the person is responding to commands and voices his fear, you could have hime call 911 to verify your presence. A suspect who refuses come out to command is traditionally more likely to be armed and willing to shoot it out, so theres some more to add to the articulation of the shooting.

I only have 11 DPs of field time on, so feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[DOAcop38]

sorry to sound like a "old grungy"- BUT ,I've seeen VERY FEW young and new officers that are better on their tactics in the field than O.Gs !!! The folks screaming like "10 yr old boys" ( as compared to "12 yr old girls", who scream,but get the intestinal fortitude to fight BACK) over fights or foot pursuits are the rookies ! the guys who tunnel vision asnd forget streets or even the very suspect they are chasing description are ROOKIES!!! and the ones who tend to lose the fights ARE ROOKIES- but I'm not slamming them 'cause,having hit the 20 yr mark, I have watched as others throw away their "vet" edge and slip into the "i can handle anything " mode- also WRONG.

Sadly this is a job that requires cool ,level headed thinking,whether you are 2 wks or 25 yrs on the job.As for the IPD shooter? sadly its the SAME officer that shot 19yr old Mike Byoune at the I/S of Manchester and Crenshaw.He's DONE,sadly on that job ( they'll probably stress retire him)..........

[Berlioz]

sorry to sound like a "old grungy"- BUT ,I've seeen VERY FEW young and new officers that are better on their tactics in the field than O.Gs !!! The folks screaming like "10 yr old boys" ( as compared to "12 yr old girls", who scream,but get the intestinal fortitude to fight BACK) over fights or foot pursuits are the rookies ! the guys who tunnel vision asnd forget streets or even the very suspect they are chasing description are ROOKIES!!! and the ones who tend to lose the fights ARE ROOKIES- but I'm not slamming them 'cause,having hit the 20 yr mark, I have watched as others throw away their "vet" edge and slip into the "i can handle anything " mode- also WRONG.

Sadly this is a job that requires cool ,level headed thinking,whether you are 2 wks or 25 yrs on the job.As for the IPD shooter? sadly its the SAME officer that shot 19yr old Mike Byoune at the I/S of Manchester and Crenshaw.He's DONE,sadly on that job ( they'll probably stress retire him)..........

I hope it wasnt my previous post that implied that boots or rooks are better tactically than the OGs. That wasnt the intention and certainly is not the truth. I voted yes on the option that officers now a days have better training than people did back in the day. Keep in mind that us n the new generation benefit from mistakes or unfortunate occurrances of those from the past. I just simply think that today, a young officer has a more vast pallate to be trained from than an officer 20 yrs ago probably did. I know a 20 yr officer would whoop my @$$ in just about every category....so thats not even in question.

[DOAcop38]

I hope it wasnt my previous post that implied that boots or rooks are better tactically than the OGs. That wasnt the intention and certainly is not the truth. I voted yes on the option that officers now a days have better training than people did back in the day. Keep in mind that us n the new generation benefit from mistakes or unfortunate occurrances of those from the past. I just simply think that today, a young officer has a more vast pallate to be trained from than an officer 20 yrs ago probably did. I know a 20 yr officer would whoop my @$$ in just about every category....so thats not even in question.

Nah- not cracking on you- you'll see in 4-5 yrs what it took me 10 YRS to "see" over at "the hard ghheeeetoooo" of weschester -LOLOLOLOL!!! There is a trade off- Newbies learn all the NEW cool and neat stuff,but most don't know how to use it.and alot of older officers just don't always keep up the new things they should! what we are seeing is a definite "gulf" in experience.too many folks in mgm't are pushing the private industry model- bypass being a "specialist" and PROMOTE,PROMOTE,PROMOTE! all that matters is getting to the top,and that leaves the younger crowd out there to "figure it out" themselves-learning the hard way is not the best way!come visit LAX sometimes and DON'T be surprised if the "block" of a classmate you knew from the academy is probably of training( after being "trained" by a 1-2 yr "vet" FTO)- mgm't is too busy being in charge and important to see that their foundation is weak-expect alot more UOF issues from depts with large groups of rookie officers on the streets..........

[Berlioz]

Nah- not cracking on you- you'll see in 4-5 yrs what it took me 10 YRS to "see" over at "the hard ghheeeetoooo" of weschester -LOLOLOLOL!!! There is a trade off- Newbies learn all the NEW cool and neat stuff,but most don't know how to use it.and alot of older officers just don't always keep up the new things they should! what we are seeing is a definite "gulf" in experience.too many folks in mgm't are pushing the private industry model- bypass being a "specialist" and PROMOTE,PROMOTE,PROMOTE! all that matters is getting to the top,and that leaves the younger crowd out there to "figure it out" themselves-learning the hard way is not the best way!come visit LAX sometimes and DON'T be surprised if the "block" of a classmate you knew from the academy is probably of training( after being "trained" by a 1-2 yr "vet" FTO)- mgm't is too busy being in charge and important to see that their foundation is weak-expect alot more UOF issues from depts with large groups of rookie officers on the streets..........

That makes sense, I was working with a Veteran Gang officer and he was telling me that a lot of the young p2s get into a lot of preventable UOFs with gangster due to their inability to "talk" to them. There is now substitute for experience, thats for sure.

[Sgt.Reality]

There's a lot of factors on this incident that will be investigated before any of us will be able to make a halfway, objective opinion on what happened here:

So far:

Inglewood PD has said the dispatcher gave the officers the wrong address.


Other, un confirmed info: The vict. knew several IPD officers off duty and may have called one on his cell phone as the incident took place. There may be a audio recording of the time in which the OIS occurred.

While un confirmed, there is reason to suggest the officer had the cards stacked against him (surprise/common occurrence in this job field), and studies have proven officers involved in prior OIS's are statiscally proven to use deadly force faster than officers that have not used deadly force before.

Training, experience always are factors in any OIS, to what extent they are here will be analyzed and documented in the ensuing investigation.

[pulicords]

While un confirmed, there is reason to suggest the officer had the cards stacked against him (surprise/common occurrence in this job field), and studies have proven officers involved in prior OIS's are statiscally proven to use deadly force faster than officers that have not used deadly force before.

Training, experience always are factors in any OIS, to what extent they are here will be analyzed and documented in the ensuing investigation.

This shooting incident should be evaluated on specific event alone. Using "studies and statistics" as a basis to decide if this shooting is within the law and department policy, rather than the individual circumstances of the incident is nothing but a cover for anti-police bias. Maybe the officer was involved in another shooting. So what? Other more experienced officers were involved in that incident with him and although tragic, that shooting may well bee fully justified.

Apparently this young, new officer, went to the door of a location he believed there was a disturbance at and was "greeted" by a man holding a gun. Depending on his observations at the time, his reactions may very well have been the same as ours. It's way too early for anyone to begin second guessing this guy without the facts specific to this occurrence and it's disappointing that even experienced cops like DOA are jumping right on the anti-police bandwagon like some of Inglewood's residents are doing now. This shooting was no more an indication of a "trend" than the fact the officer was armed with gun "A" and in earlier days he might have had gun "B".

[hbliam]

On topic, regarding the poll. I think it's just basic math and learning from the past, that newer Officers have more training, better training, and a better FTO program. That doesn't make them "better" then an experianced Officer. It might speed up the progression to "good", but nothing can take the place of experiance and maturity (and even young Officers can be more "mature" then an older one, it's all depends on the person).

I debrief every major call (both with senior officers and internally) to figure out ways that I could have handled calls better. I absolutely handle things better that I have handled several times before.

[DOAcop38]

Apparently this young, new officer, went to the door of a location he believed there was a disturbance at and was "greeted" by a man holding a gun. Depending on his observations at the time, his reactions may very well have been the same as ours. It's way too early for anyone to begin second guessing this guy without the facts specific to this occurrence and it's disappointing that even experienced cops like DOA are jumping right on the anti-police bandwagon like some of Inglewood's residents are doing now. This shooting was no more an indication of a "trend" than the fact the officer was armed with gun "A" and in earlier days he might have had gun "B".

I NEVER jumped on the anti police band wagon !! I work next to these guys (IPD) and have often been out on capers with them- they deal with a tough situation in that Inglewood city is in "transition"- the city is trying to shed almost 30 yrs of neglect and apathy,as well as a ridiculous amount of criminal activity-it often spills over into LAXPDs area of patrol,so I DO know what they deal with!(my depts officers and K-9 units were recently assisting IPD on an "ambush" attempt by local gangmembers of IPD gang officers) I believe Ragans career is TOAST for political reasons,not becuase he's a bad copper ! the shooting victim was NOT a knucklehead and this is a TRAGEDY-period.

To claim I am on the "anti police" bandwagon is bull!- the shoot technically is GOOD- they approached ,i'd themselves and confronted an ARMED person- if this had happened in the tawnier parts of Torrance or redondo Bch, the outcome would have been the same - officers would have shot and the armed citizen would be dead- just the same.what is galling alot of the so called blk community "activists" is that another young and INNOCENT blk man was killed by a police officer-thats what the local leaders and the police chief need to deal with- they need to maintain an open ,unbiased approach to the investigation as well as calm the concerns of the community about the performance of the IPD.The guys that work "Inglewood" are good,tough officers -they have to be,but to down play this as a tragedy is WRONG-no matter how technically "right" the officer was, an Innocent citzen died I think taking a stance that since the mistakes weren't the fault of the officer (location and info on the call),then it doesn't matter that he had to shoot someone, is awful- taking anyones life,whether a criminal or by accident, is the last thing any officer in L.E. should have to do or be put in a situation to do. i wish the best of the officer involved as well as the family of the shooting victim. hopefully IPD will take the steps necessary,thru community outreach and additional training of dispatchers and officers to avoid such incidents in the future.We all learn from terrible mistakes- maybe all of us can look at this and come up with better solutions to avoid it happening with our own depts.....

[DOAcop38]

While un confirmed, there is reason to suggest the officer had the cards stacked against him (surprise/common occurrence in this job field), and studies have proven officers involved in prior OIS's are statiscally proven to use deadly force faster than officers that have not used deadly force before.

Training, experience always are factors in any OIS, to what extent they are here will be analyzed and documented in the ensuing investigation.

The apt complex the vict ( Wicks) lived in has had its share of radio calls and has several "knucklehead" residents that are a constant source of police related invs. Like alot of folks - Wicks just didn't have the money to move somewhere "better".

As far as the comment on officers involved in prior OIS's? very true- worked with a former partner,now a Lt at PORT PD, who has had several OIS's-alot of officers who have been in shootings become more hypersensitive to potential violent confrontations than their counterparts who haven't.this was also talked about by the officer who responded to back up slain officer Matt Pavelka(burbank PD)-there was absoultely NO hesistating in his response and deployment of deadly force( that officer had had a OIS prior to coming to BPD also)

[pulicords]

I NEVER jumped on the anti police band wagon!!

I believe Ragans career is TOAST for political reasons,not becuase he's a bad copper ! the shooting victim was NOT a knucklehead and this is a TRAGEDY-period.

To claim I am on the "anti police" bandwagon is bull!- the shoot technically is GOOD- they approached ,i'd themselves and confronted an ARMED person- if this had happened in the tawnier parts of Torrance or redondo Bch, the outcome would have been the same - officers would have shot and the armed citizen would be dead- just the same.what is galling alot of the so called blk community "activists" is that another young and INNOCENT blk man was killed by a police officer-thats what the local leaders and the police chief need to deal with- they need to maintain an open ,unbiased approach to the investigation as well as calm the concerns of the community about the performance of the IPD.

hopefully IPD will take the steps necessary,thru community outreach and additional training of dispatchers and officers to avoid such incidents in the future. We all learn from terrible mistakes- maybe all of us can look at this and come up with better solutions to avoid it happening with our own depts.....

DOA: Of course it's a tragedy! No one's denying it, but you can't say you're not "buying into the anti's" politics while admitting the incident will result in the officers' career being "toast" due to politics. If the officer erred, but still used reasonable tactics, training and responses similar to others' at his level of experience, then sacrificing his career and/or that of his chief is BS! I know Chief Seabrooks and while I don't know if she will sacrifice the new officer for her own career, I hope she stands up for him if his actions were reasonable.

This job isn't about making all the right decisions. It's about making the right decisions based upon what you know and see in front of you. I wasn't there and don't have all the details, but if the situation was one in which you, I or any other officer in the same position (with the same level of experience) as Ragan would have reacted similarly then it's wrong to dump him. Period.

Evaluation and training based upon past incidents can only do so much. We can never eliminate all potential errors because there's such a vast number of potential future situations. Learn from what happens, but learning isn't the same as throwing a good officer to the wolves. That does nothing, but encourage those who are using this for political advantage to do it again and again. If it was a "reasonable" but mistaken action taken by a new, inexperienced officer and Jackie doesn't have the spine to stand up for him, she's not just letting down the individual. She'll be letting down all the officers that depend upon her and in the long run the community she wants to serve.

I know you're not anti-cop, but no one's "downplaying" this tragedy by saying maybe it just couldn't be avoided and using this kid as a scapegoat isn't right.

[DOAcop38]

i agree that using Ragan as a"scapegoat" for faulty communications and a overly worked patrol division of IPD is wrong,I'm only going on how they (IPD mgm't) laid down on Jeremy Morse,after that wreslting match with that teenage thug several yrs back ! i know alot of IPD "shooters"( my co workers Ex has plugged plenty of B.Gs over there) -its just that Ragan has had two NON suspect shootings.and if Seabrooks is anything like her "mentor" ( whose our BOSS now), she'll serve him up hot on the platter by doing a "show termination" to quiet the natives down( and of course he'll have to fight for his honor,like Morse did- as well as the back compensation properly due him) Like I said- been on several OIS's and a number of UOF deaths( involved in one)- just hope that NO other officer has to face this situation( two OIS deaths in less than 4 mos!)