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The Chino Shooting Trial

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  • #16
    Originally posted by DOAcop38 View Post
    I still believe that there was the issue of the "fight/flight" response-and still,many officer DON'T know how to handle it.
    One thing I've noticed with my own folks is ,that on the few occasions where they have been in pursuit,there was so much apprehension toward what they were doing 'til they fel back on the felony stop 101 procedures,even WHEN the suspect or suspects was actively resisting or fleeing from location(hey,guys! isn't that the suspect running up the block there? why are training your guns on "obviously" empty car?)

    Ivory Webb guilty of intentional desire wound or cause great bodily injury? Nope still-"fear,tunnel vision,and andernalin"brought about the negligence that cuased it-Webb was too "locked in" and didn't give himself any options-bet it was a combo of working too much OT,lack of rest,lack of concentration-condition "white"-,even "overeagerness to get into something" which led to the unanticipated(unpreparedness for) pursuit .and the physical shooting itself? during fight/flight,it has been proven that certain parts of the body and even the brain shut down temporarily-sure Webb was giving orders for the Carrion kid to get up,but a mere muscle twitch and 3-5lbs of "EASY" trigger pull ,can cause a GLOCK pistol or pretty much any current semi auto pistol to push several rds down range without effort.Webb probably didn't remember everything he even said to Carrion and the corvettes driver until after he had time to review the tape.either way-SB dist Atty sent a D.A investigator to prison for trying to defend himself against a child abduction suspect trying to run the investigator over,they'll probably send Ivory up state too .......
    DOA, like you I am very aware of fight/flight response, but I guess we'll have to disagree as to an officer's ability or responsibility on how to act in commonly encountered situations such as vehicle pursuits. The selection process, training and supervision we in LE undergo throughout our careers requires that we be accountable for our actions, even in extremely high stress situations. Again, I can't claim I'm familiar with anything other than the basics of the Webb pursuit and shooting, but from what I have seen there may have been a grossly unnecessary shooting.

    My department (like most in So. Ca.) has a policy restricting shooting at moving vehicles. Several years ago, I responded to a "Woman Screaming" call. The "victim" upon my arrival attempted to run another officer and I over with her vehicle. Try as I might, I couldn't just "dodge" her car as she chased me through a parking lot. I fired at her twice, knowing that the other officer was on the opposite side of her car. I experienced fight and flight at the same time in a situation I'd never "game planned" or imagined. With the second shot, the victim/suspect decided she didn't want to play anymore. She stopped the car, reversed direction, sped off and crashed a few blocks away. When the woman was trying to run me down, I knew she wanted to kill me and I knew I was going to die if I didn't act, even if it meant endangering my fellow officer. I didn't like doing it, but basic survival instinct kicked in and I did what I had to do. When the woman stopped and reversed direction, I was angry for what she'd done and made me do. Probably angrier than I've ever been in this job. Shooting at her again was a strong temptation, but to have done so would have been wrong. A violation of departmental policy and (I believe) an unnecessary risk to my fellow officer. We got in our cars, found the wreck, set up a perimeter and I was pleased to be one of the officers who found her. She was arrested w/o additional use of force. I felt bad about risking my partner's life with those two shots, even though he not only understood but said he admired my restraint. It took me a couple of days to accept the fact that I did what I had to do in both parts of the incident. Shooting when I had to and resisting the urge to shoot when it wasn't necessary or proper (within our policy). I believe this is what makes you, I and most law enforcement officers special. The ability to resist doing what the average person wouldn't hesitate to do given extraordinary situations. If Webb believed the suspect was going for a weapon, he should be found "Not Guilty." If he just reacted on a gut level (based upon anger) it wasn't negligence. He (like us) is trained to keep his finger off the trigger until he's ready to fire and he should be accountable. The District Attorney's Office was totally right to file charges if the evidence supports them.

    By the way, the "victim" (suspect) in my situation had just shot her boyfriend in the head, in a neighboring jurisdiction. We weren't aware she was wanted at the time.
    "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

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    • #17
      Not one to start rumors, but I heard the Deputy had some prior problems.
      "Disco's Out, Murder's In" -Man, ain't that the truth!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SOCALCOP View Post
        Sorry brother but not intentional? I am all for allowing a jury decide. If he is found not-guilty then fine no problems but you can't tell me shooting someone 3 times is not intentional. I'll buy 1 shot was an accident (maybe) but not 3! If you responded to a shooting call would you believe the suspect who said he shot someone un-intentionaly 3 times?
        Don't you think if he meant to shoot him 3 times, there would have been decent shot grouping? He hit this guy in 3 totally different locations. I believe that he lost control of the situation, screwed up with his finger on the trigger and had an A.D. After the gun went off, he didn't realize it was his and thought someone was shooting at him. This startled him to pull the trigger 2 more times. This scenario has been played out in numerous cases before.

        I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, but, that's my opinion.
        God made perfect cops.......The rest he put in cars.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Bully View Post
          Don't you think if he meant to shoot him 3 times, there would have been decent shot grouping? He hit this guy in 3 totally different locations. I believe that he lost control of the situation, screwed up with his finger on the trigger and had an A.D. After the gun went off, he didn't realize it was his and thought someone was shooting at him. This startled him to pull the trigger 2 more times. This scenario has been played out in numerous cases before.

          I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, but, that's my opinion.
          I thought his whole defense was the guy reached for what he thought was a weapon? What's the point of the shooting being an accident? According to the deputy, it wasn't.
          "Disco's Out, Murder's In" -Man, ain't that the truth!

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          • #20
            Use of force expert, Joe Callanan, testified yesterday and called the tactics that Webb used "a disaster." He openly criticized all of the incident from the beginning of the pursuit to the end of the shooting and characterized Webb as a person out of control of the situation.

            From a supervisory viewpoint, I personally feel the incident was an unfortunate circumstance wherein an individual failed to maintain his persona and control the situation based on his training and logic. Too bad!! I think the case is pretty much going the way the D.A. is planning. The defense is not being too successful thusfar.
            Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence!

            [George Washington (1732 - 1799)]

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            • #21
              Originally posted by SgtCHP View Post
              Use of force expert, Joe Callanan, testified yesterday and called the tactics that Webb used "a disaster." He openly criticized all of the incident from the beginning of the pursuit to the end of the shooting and characterized Webb as a person out of control of the situation.

              From a supervisory viewpoint, I personally feel the incident was an unfortunate circumstance wherein an individual failed to maintain his persona and control the situation based on his training and logic. Too bad!! I think the case is pretty much going the way the D.A. is planning. The defense is not being too successful thusfar.
              I agree. I'm just curious, how did he critcize the beginning of the pursuit and the chase itself? Did the deputy screw that up too?
              "Disco's Out, Murder's In" -Man, ain't that the truth!

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              • #22
                Ok,,I just read the story. This deputy must have either did that on purpose, or he was very disoriented. Either way,,it sounds bad.
                "Disco's Out, Murder's In" -Man, ain't that the truth!

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                • #23
                  Don't want to be a told you so...This guy is going up the river. I honestly believe he was ****ed off and shot the guy on purpose.

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                  • #24
                    I agree. I was initially of the opinion that the "Rodney King" cops were guilty until I really looked at the video. Then I knew they'd be acquitted. Sorry to say, but I can't see any justification for this shooting.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by InlandEmpire View Post
                      I agree. I'm just curious, how did he critcize the beginning of the pursuit and the chase itself? Did the deputy screw that up too?
                      The deputy failed to notify radio of the pursuit, its origination, direction of travel, speeds, etc. Once the vehicle tc'd, he did not know his own location and gave two or three erroneous locs which sent backup everywhere. The first officer on scene was a Chino PD officer. He immediately turned on his personal voice recorder and obtained a statement from the deputy alleging his was attacked (lunged at) by the subject - a statement that was allegedly repeated by the deputy to his own supervisor and a few others. After seeing the video, the deputy allegedly changed his story for the shooting.
                      Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence!

                      [George Washington (1732 - 1799)]

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                      • #26
                        Did they say how long the pursuit was (distance and time from initiation to termination). I've been in very short pursuits where it ended so fast, I didn't have time to put it out either. But I have a feeling this was a somewhat longer pursuit.
                        "Disco's Out, Murder's In" -Man, ain't that the truth!

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                        • #27
                          As I recall the initial report the pursuit was short lived - between 1 and 2 miles - however, the time frame was such that he could have called in the initiation of the pursuit and given at least two locations before the suspect vehicle crashed.
                          Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence!

                          [George Washington (1732 - 1799)]

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                          • #28
                            Oh yea,,that's ample time. Like I said before,,there was talk around here that this guy had issues before the shooting happened. Stuff like he was on a work contract,,and rumors he was looking to go out on stress. But these are just RUMORS. No confirmation from me.
                            "Disco's Out, Murder's In" -Man, ain't that the truth!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Closing arguments were today. No cameras in court (that I saw), but I did see one of the defense attornies on TV afterward basically saying the jury should judge Deputy Webb on "his life", not on one minute of a video. Oh,,,,ok. That sounds a little desperate to me. Maybe a verdict by Friday?
                              Last edited by LuvedMyMotor; 06-28-2007, 01:42 AM.

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                              • #30
                                OK,,,verdict's in and it's NOT GUILTY. (There are at least 2 other threads that were started today on this topic). I would have lost big money if I were a betting man on this result. Wow.

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