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The Chino Shooting Trial

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  • The Chino Shooting Trial

    Is hearing opening arguments. Former Dep. Ivory Webb pulled over a 'vette after a short pursuit and put the passenger, a MP on leave from service in Iraq, on the ground. In the video provided from a bystander w/a camera phone it appeared the man was complying w/the officer and began to slowly get up from the ground when the officer fired 3 shots at the man.

    Mr. Webb will be found not guilty and hopefully reinstated to his job when his lawyer produces the slowed down and highlighted version of the video that reveals the passenger reaching into the breastpocket of his jacket as he was getting up. I originally saw this new info several months ago in a brief interview with the lawyer. It was never said what the man was reaching for, but the fact that he made that move into his jacket was more than enough reason for the officer to fire upon him.

    In light of the improved quality of the video, I am wondering why charges were not dropped against this officer? So far the media has been pushing the "unprovoked shooting" aspect of this situation. It is the same channel that aired the interview w/the lawyer about the improved video. Do the producers just not remember what stories they have put on the air about the subject? Jeeze

  • #2
    It wasn't a camera phone, it was an actual camcorder.

    The deputy was out of control and shot the guy after giving him conflicting commands, which the air force guy followed.

    I think the moral of the story is to keep cool and under control during hot stops.
    Get low, get ground, get tactical! Sprawl! Sprawl! Sprawl!

    Comment


    • #3
      What about the part of the video that showed the MP reaching into his jacket with his right hand as he was following the officer's commands to get on his feet? You can't see this

      During a preliminary hearing, Schwartz played an FBI-enhanced copy of the videotape frame by frame to show Carrion's hand going toward his jacket, a movement that is almost imperceptible when the footage is seen at real speed.
      in the video:

      http://www.myfoxla.com/myfox/pages/N...Y&pageId=3.2.1

      but if the officer thought he was reaching for a weapon, he had no other choice.

      And, being an MP in the USAF, didn't Carrion have an idea of the consequences when he reached into his jacket while in that situation?



      http://ktla.trb.com/news/ktla-chinos...ll=ktla-news-1

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      • #4
        You may be Webb's only friend. It was a bad shooting there is no way around it. Webb will be going to prison for many years and he wont get his job back because he resigned.

        Comment


        • #5
          None of us were there and know exactly what happened. We only the last two minutes of a grainy video. For all we know, he could've been in a fight with this guy, or he knew this guy had a weapon and was reaching for it.

          I'm not going to slam this deputy at all, I'm going to support him until the facts come out.

          Comment


          • #6
            One of my biggest fears as a cop was shooting someone because "I thought he had a gun". I pretty much told mysef I've got to SEE a gun before I start blasting. To me, reaching into a jacket isn't enough.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by nobody33 View Post
              It wasn't a camera phone, it was an actual camcorder.

              The deputy was out of control and shot the guy after giving him conflicting commands, which the air force guy followed.

              I think the moral of the story is to keep cool and under control during hot stops.

              "out of control"? no- but post pursuit adrenalin rush ,"yes"-seen it far too many times-guys all jacked up (fear,anger,nervous) during High speed pursuit,it comes to an end and the officer or deputy has yet to decompress-still locked into the situation.Its a basic "animal" instinct that EVEN humans have a hard time fighting to gain control of.I've seen in it in my pets-had a german shepeard and a rott weiler- both would pick out or encounter another dog,smell fear and the agressiveness would naturally come out-video taped their actions with other dogs once and added it to a training video about foot pursuits i presented while an FTO.If you've been in a few pursuits on your OWN- you will know what the feelings are like-the hard part is the control aspect( some master it,some never will).

              Should Webb be disciplined? "Yes"-somewhere he should have called that pursuit quits and just followed if his back up wasn't immedately available.I chased a knucklehead down the other nite-broke it down to a "following" on a reckless driver-gave myself space and TIME to assess the incident and pre plan(also gave Backup LAPD and LAXPD units time to respond) inv,revealed a former gang member with a serious chip on his shoulder,and the incident ended up a cite and release and vehicle impound.Had this been my rookie yrs,i'd have broadcasted a full on pursuit,had everyone running code 3 and at teh end of it ,would probably gotten a little "rough" with old knucklehead-those days are long over.

              Webb had a "ND" -negligent discharge(and it was due to the post pursuit fight or flight reaction)-time and time again ,folks are told in this business ,keep your nose pickers off the trigger.depending on what his jacket looks like( "clean"-he stays, or lots of IAs,citizen beefs,UOF,etc its the unemployment line) I probably wouldn't fire him-but he'd suffer the fullest discipline less than termination,and to let the DA charge him? "no",gross negligence"yes",but intentional?nope".Pay the victim in an out of court settlement,retrain the Deputy-put him in custody for a while ,and review training policy so that this type of gunplay doesn't occur again..........
              "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by beachcop05 View Post
                None of us were there and know exactly what happened. We only the last two minutes of a grainy video. For all we know, he could've been in a fight with this guy, or he knew this guy had a weapon and was reaching for it.

                I'm not going to slam this deputy at all, I'm going to support him until the facts come out.
                ditto! this was not intentional,and the suspects caused the incident to come to this sorry conclusion-
                "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DOAcop38 View Post
                  ditto! this was not intentional,and the suspects caused the incident to come to this sorry conclusion-

                  Sorry brother but not intentional? I am all for allowing a jury decide. If he is found not-guilty then fine no problems but you can't tell me shooting someone 3 times is not intentional. I'll buy 1 shot was an accident (maybe) but not 3! If you responded to a shooting call would you believe the suspect who said he shot someone un-intentionaly 3 times?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SOCALCOP View Post
                    Sorry brother but not intentional? I am all for allowing a jury decide. If he is found not-guilty then fine no problems but you can't tell me shooting someone 3 times is not intentional. I'll buy 1 shot was an accident (maybe) but not 3! If you responded to a shooting call would you believe the suspect who said he shot someone un-intentionaly 3 times?
                    Re-read DOA's post. I think what he meant, was the incident(chase and what subsequently followed ) was not intentional.(if that makes any sense at all?) The actual "shooting" however, was obviously intentional.

                    But then again, I worked with his dad, and I must say, the Sr. Ivory could have been quite capable of accidently shooting someone three times
                    "Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought" ~Henri Louis Bergson
                    ______________________


                    ComptonPOLICEGANGS.com

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DOAcop38 View Post
                      "out of control"? no- but post pursuit adrenalin rush ,"yes"-seen it far too many times-guys all jacked up (fear,anger,nervous) during High speed pursuit,it comes to an end and the officer or deputy has yet to decompress-still locked into the situation.Its a basic "animal" instinct that EVEN humans have a hard time fighting to gain control of.I've seen in it in my pets-had a german shepeard and a rott weiler- both would pick out or encounter another dog,smell fear and the agressiveness would naturally come out-video taped their actions with other dogs once and added it to a training video about foot pursuits i presented while an FTO.If you've been in a few pursuits on your OWN- you will know what the feelings are like-the hard part is the control aspect( some master it,some never will).

                      Should Webb be disciplined? "Yes"-somewhere he should have called that pursuit quits and just followed if his back up wasn't immedately available.I chased a knucklehead down the other nite-broke it down to a "following" on a reckless driver-gave myself space and TIME to assess the incident and pre plan(also gave Backup LAPD and LAXPD units time to respond) inv,revealed a former gang member with a serious chip on his shoulder,and the incident ended up a cite and release and vehicle impound.Had this been my rookie yrs,i'd have broadcasted a full on pursuit,had everyone running code 3 and at teh end of it ,would probably gotten a little "rough" with old knucklehead-those days are long over.

                      Webb had a "ND" -negligent discharge(and it was due to the post pursuit fight or flight reaction)-time and time again ,folks are told in this business ,keep your nose pickers off the trigger.depending on what his jacket looks like( "clean"-he stays, or lots of IAs,citizen beefs,UOF,etc its the unemployment line) I probably wouldn't fire him-but he'd suffer the fullest discipline less than termination,and to let the DA charge him? "no",gross negligence"yes",but intentional?nope".Pay the victim in an out of court settlement,retrain the Deputy-put him in custody for a while ,and review training policy so that this type of gunplay doesn't occur again..........

                      Ditto. Whether it was intentional or not, which I do not believe it was, the guy was too hyped up on fight or flight. I don't know why the AF SP was intent on explaining himself, but, he was 50% responsible as well. He should have just laid his *** down. The AF SP seemed to have the mentality that many had when I was an AF SP. That is, either arrogance or the belief they could explain away ANYTHING. Not all were like this but I saw some of this.

                      2Lucky

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                      • #12
                        Webb changed his statement 4 days after the incident to say the guy reached into his pocket AFTER he saw the video tape. He originally said the guy lunged at him. I'm gonna call BS on that. I'm all for backing people who deserve it, and not rushing to judgment, but this case is over a year and a half old now.


                        I don't think he deserves to spend the rest of his life in jail or anything too harsh.. but he should never be able to carry a gun...ever.
                        Get low, get ground, get tactical! Sprawl! Sprawl! Sprawl!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DOAcop38 View Post
                          "out of control"? no- but post pursuit adrenalin rush ,"yes"-seen it far too many times-guys all jacked up (fear,anger,nervous) during High speed pursuit,it comes to an end and the officer or deputy has yet to decompress-still locked into the situation.Its a basic "animal" instinct that EVEN humans have a hard time fighting to gain control of.

                          Webb had a "ND" -negligent discharge(and it was due to the post pursuit fight or flight reaction)
                          Sorry to disagree DOA, but I believe this "Post Pursuit Syndrome" is BS! It was "discovered" by ACLU affiliated researchers and used by associated attorneys to demand more restrictive pursuit policies. The theory being that if all officers are at risk of this syndrome, then all should be severely restricted from chasing suspects. If not, then the department/employing jurisdiction should be liable for injuries sustained.

                          I've been in a few pursuits over the years and it's amazing how much the culture of the organization has to do with the use of force at the termination. The two LE agencies I've worked for (where I was involved in pursuits) used force when force was called for. When another large dept's officers were involved (You know who I'm talking about. They don't generally wear shoulder patches.), it was a given that the end of the pursuit was the beginning of the beating! Of course all this was prior to televised (via helicopter) pursuits. If you talked to their officers it was widely acknowledged that this was an acceptable practice. Oddly (?) enough the departments I worked for didn't agree and I never saw a passive suspect injured by one of our officers. It's about restraint. There are many kinds of incidents which result in officers being excited, angry, fearful, etc..., but we are still expected to be professionals. I'm not familiar with all the facts in the Webb case, but (with the multiple rounds being fired in this situation) he's going to have a very difficult time convincing the jury the shooting was just a negligent discharge.
                          "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            pullicord- while I do respect and value your experience also,I still believe that there was the issue of the "fight/flight" response-and still,many officer DON'T know how to handle it.I remember my first training on pursuits-back when LASD/LAPD used the Pomona Fair grounds "together"( LASD would be on one side training and hooping and hollering,while LAPD was on the other saying "look at those clowns-don't you dare ACT like that or its a#181 in all of your packages !!!") to train on vehicle operations.Classmates would be pouring sweat after the "training exercises",some jabbering at 100 mph,some hyper and giddy,the rest puking or shaking and nervous.now this wasn't ALL of the trainees,but enough to make me wonder-how the heck are they gonna handle the real thing? Now with time ,many have mastered it,but -like you said- some didn't get it and the post pursuit beating was the steam valve for that "rush"-can we say "Stanley Miller".One thing I've noticed with my own folks is ,that on the few occasions where they have been in pursuit,there was so much apprehension toward what they were doing 'til they fel back on the felony stop 101 procedures,even WHEN the suspect or suspects was actively resisting or fleeing from location(hey,guys! isn't that the suspect running up the block there? why are training your guns on "obviously" empty car?)

                            Ivory Webb guilty of intentional desire wound or cause great bodily injury? Nope still-"fear,tunnel vision,and andernalin"brought about the negligence that cuased it-Webb was too "locked in" and didn't give himself any options-bet it was a combo of working too much OT,lack of rest,lack of concentration-condition "white"-,even "overeagerness to get into something" which led to the unanticipated(unpreparedness for) pursuit .and the physical shooting itself? during fight/flight,it has been proven that certain parts of the body and even the brain shut down temporarily-sure Webb was giving orders for the Carrion kid to get up,but a mere muscle twitch and 3-5lbs of "EASY" trigger pull ,can cause a GLOCK pistol or pretty much any current semi auto pistol to push several rds down range without effort.Webb probably didn't remember everything he even said to Carrion and the corvettes driver until after he had time to review the tape.either way-SB dist Atty sent a D.A investigator to prison for trying to defend himself against a child abduction suspect trying to run the investigator over,they'll probably send Ivory up state too .......
                            Last edited by DOAcop38; 05-22-2007, 08:45 PM.
                            "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by exComptonCop View Post
                              Re-read DOA's post. I think what he meant, was the incident(chase and what subsequently followed ) was not intentional.(if that makes any sense at all?) The actual "shooting" however, was obviously intentional.
                              Thanks for kinda understanding my point- doubt that Wbb was chasing these guys and thinking"as soon as they stop I'm gonna' shoot'em"

                              But then again, I worked with his dad, and I must say, the Sr. Ivory could have been quite capable of accidently shooting someone three times
                              Met his dad while in Reserve training- Yeah ,he could actually THINK "when they stop I'm gonna shoot them!"
                              "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

                              Comment

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