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  • Specialized State Investigator Positions

    Hi all,

    Can anyone speak to the probability of someone with prior LE experience (out-of-state, so no CA POST Cert) getting selected for a position within the CA investigator classification within any of the smaller, more specialized agencies (DOI, DMV, etc.)? Many of the postings mention that the department will hire you in a limited capacity if you need to complete the POST requirements... just wondering if anyone out there has made a direct lateral into one of those positions.

    I recognize these smaller agencies might save a bit of money/time if their new hires come certified, so I am curious if it’s a lost cause to try and pursue that vs. a conventional larger department that can afford the cost and temporary loss of manpower to put someone through the academy.

    I suppose my next question is whether anyone has accomplished the above through a cert-by-waiver. Thanks.

  • #2
    Look at the California POST waiver process. It may be of help to you.

    Understand that while DOI an DMV are very good agencies, they are also highly specialized and you will find what you are doing to be very limited.

    There is a DOI guy on here periodically. He should be able to give you more info on that agency. (I just worked with them before I retired and several of my guys went over to them).

    I believe there is also anothet specialized investigator who comes up periodically. Not sure what agency he is with but he has the skinny on many of the other 830.3 agencies.

    Last edited by L-1; 02-10-2020, 05:36 PM.
    Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

    Comment


    • #3
      Not sure how a lateral deal would work with you having an out-of-state certification, but if you're interested in the spots, apply. Many of the agencies (ABC, DOI, DMV, DCA, etc.) can and do put people through POST academies. That said, I'm guessing you'd prefer to skip the academy if you've already done something similar, so definitely pursue the lateral thing.

      These agencies often hire people with no LEO experience and who are entry level. That said, how competitive things are also depend on the area of the state. The Bay Area, for example, will be less competitive than cheaper areas, as the State of California is really stupid and doesn't do locality pay like it should.

      Comment


      • #4
        You must have POST or equivalent/Waiver with short academy that meets POST in order to function as a Peace Officer.

        You can’t just walk in and start working.
        Now go home and get your shine box!

        Comment


        • #5
          Anyone here have specific experience with Dept. Of Insurance or Dept. of Health Care Services? If so, is one dept better than the other? Why?
          pros and cons for each Dept?
          Thanks in advance.

          Comment


          • #6
            I worked with the Insurance guys for many years. Although specialized (fraud) the do active criminal investigations. Health Care does more administrative investigations (violation of state administrative rules related to licensing and program administration).

            These positions are found in Section 830.3 of the Penal Code. It provides that peace officers in these sections may be armed only if authorized by the employing agency. Insurance is armed. I can't speak for Health Care, but suspect they are not. Take your clue from there.
            Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

            Comment


            • #7
              It’s my understanding that Health Care Services are also armed. I do hear that insurance does more criminal, at the same time, health care does criminal also. I do know that insurance has code 3 equipped vehicles, but not sure about health care services.

              Comment


              • #8
                I used to be a California State Investigator (830.3) and was hired with a Basic Course Waiver. There are at least 3 individuals I know personally who also went this route. If you search "Basic Course Waiver" I have gone in depth on some other threads with regards to how the process works.

                I will give you the cliff notes and if you need more info PM me.

                1) Get all your transcripts together and send them to POST.

                2) POST will respond and let you know if you meet the requirements to sit for the 3 week course or, if you choose, sit for the Exam. If you do not meet the requirements you will have to seek out the additional training and then submit those records to POST. For example, I was short on some domestic violence and community policing hours so I had to seek out those courses.

                3) After you meet the requirements POST will send you a letter that says you are eligible to sit for the Exam OR take the 3 week course (I recommend you take the exam).

                4) Contact the academy at Fresno City College (PM me for the contact's info) and set up a time to take the exam. You can find the LDs online if you need to brush up on some stuff but any cop who has passed probation should be able to pass the test with limited (if any) studying. I still recommend you study because why take the chance. You will also take a firearms and DT qual.

                5) You get your Post Waiver then if you get hired on and pass probation you get a Basic POST certificate.

                I don't know where you are coming from but bear in mind that the State of California pays it's employees once a month. Even guys lateraling from California departments weren't aware and some of them could not adjust their financial lives accordingly.
                Last edited by AGInvestigator; 02-18-2020, 04:33 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by AGInvestigator View Post
                  I don't know where you are coming from but bear in mind that the State of California pays it's employees once a month. Even guys lateraling from California departments weren't aware and some of them could not adjust their financial lives accordingly.
                  Let me add on to what AGInvestigator said.

                  When you say "a month" and talk about paychecks, most people think in terms of four, 40 hour weeks or 160 working hours, which effectively creates 13 months per year based on a four week month. Most employers also pay their staff once every two weeks,

                  Not the state of California.

                  The State has broken the year into what it calls 12 "Near Equal" pay periods. They are roughly 21.75 days, or approximately 174 hours, or 4.34 weeks per pay period. The state only pays once per pay period, so there are only 12 checks per year.

                  You will need to arrange for all your bills to come around the 25th of the month, so you can pay them on the 1st of the upcoming month when you get your check. Then you will learn to budget what is left to last for the rest of the month. In doing so, you will need to count every penny you spend (and on what) to get a feel for what your actual cost of living is and what you can put in the bank as savings. Once you get that down, you will be able to manage your finances in your sleep.

                  You will also need to count up the cost of all your annual, big ticket bills (property tax, car insurance, house insurance, car registration, home warranty insurance, etc.) divide it by 12 and deposit that amount in s special, separate savings account you open, so when those bills come due, the money is there and you don't have to scramble to find it.

                  Its hard budget system to adjust to for the first few months, but once you do and get a good feel for your expenses and income, you may start socking money away and actually come out ahead.

                  Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bashman View Post
                    It’s my understanding that Health Care Services are also armed. I do hear that insurance does more criminal, at the same time, health care does criminal also. I do know that insurance has code 3 equipped vehicles, but not sure about health care services.
                    Insurance does have take-home, code-3 equipped vehicles. Doesn't mean they use the emergency equipment.

                    I never worked for Insurance, but from what I've heard, they're one of the more robust 830.3 agencies. Their working title is "Detective", they have better and newer equipment, they have reasonable caseloads, and they have better funding and more direct access to prosecutors. I believe they also have the option to work four 10s.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Boot1811 View Post

                      Insurance does have take-home, code-3 equipped vehicles. Doesn't mean they use the emergency equipment.
                      While we are on this topic, perhaps someone on here as nerdy as me about the vehicle code can shed some light about this. Having worked for Insurance, I have seen their cars equipped with blue lights, but after a review of applicable statute I'm not sure they have authority to do so. Additionally, there are other specialized agencies such as ABC (830.2(h)) who I believe run blue lights but also do not seem to have authority.

                      https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...=2.&article=7.
                      25250 VC
                      Flashing lights are prohibited on vehicles except as otherwise permitted.

                      25258(b)(1) VC
                      An authorized emergency vehicle used by a peace officer, as defined in Section 830.1 of, subdivision (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (g), or (i) of Section 830.2 of, subdivision (n) of Section 830.3 of, subdivision (b) of Section 830.31 of, subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 830.32 of, Section 830.33 of, subdivision (a) of Section 830.36 of, subdivision (a) of Section 830.4 of, or Section 830.6 of, or a probation officer, as defined in Section 830.5 of, the Penal Code, in the performance of the peace officer’s duties, may, in addition, display a steady or flashing blue warning light visible from the front, sides, or rear of the vehicle.



                      https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...=4.5.&article=
                      830.2 PC
                      The following persons are peace officers whose authority extends to any place in the state:

                      (h) Persons employed by the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control for the enforcement of Division 9 (commencing with Section 23000) of the Business and Professions Code and designated by the Director of Alcoholic Beverage Control, provided that the primary duty of any of these peace officers shall be the enforcement of the laws relating to alcoholic beverages, as that duty is set forth in Section 25755 of the Business and Professions Code.
                      830.3 PC
                      The following persons are peace officers whose authority extends to any place in the state for the purpose of performing their primary duty or when making an arrest pursuant to Section 836 as to any public offense with respect to which there is immediate danger to person or property, or of the escape of the perpetrator of that offense, or pursuant to Section 8597 or 8598 of the Government Code. These peace officers may carry firearms only if authorized and under those terms and conditions as specified by their employing agencies:

                      (i) Either the Deputy Commissioner, Enforcement Branch of, or the Fraud Division Chief of, the Department of Insurance and those investigators designated by the deputy or the chief, provided that the primary duty of those investigators shall be the enforcement of Section 550.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 18usc3583 View Post

                        While we are on this topic, perhaps someone on here as nerdy as me about the vehicle code can shed some light about this. Having worked for Insurance, I have seen their cars equipped with blue lights, but after a review of applicable statute I'm not sure they have authority to do so. Additionally, there are other specialized agencies such as ABC (830.2(h)) who I believe run blue lights but also do not seem to have authority.

                        https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...=2.&article=7.
                        25250 VC
                        Flashing lights are prohibited on vehicles except as otherwise permitted.

                        25258(b)(1) VC
                        An authorized emergency vehicle used by a peace officer, as defined in Section 830.1 of, subdivision (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (g), or (i) of Section 830.2 of, subdivision (n) of Section 830.3 of, subdivision (b) of Section 830.31 of, subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 830.32 of, Section 830.33 of, subdivision (a) of Section 830.36 of, subdivision (a) of Section 830.4 of, or Section 830.6 of, or a probation officer, as defined in Section 830.5 of, the Penal Code, in the performance of the peace officer’s duties, may, in addition, display a steady or flashing blue warning light visible from the front, sides, or rear of the vehicle.




                        https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...=4.5.&article=
                        830.2 PC
                        The following persons are peace officers whose authority extends to any place in the state:

                        (h) Persons employed by the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control for the enforcement of Division 9 (commencing with Section 23000) of the Business and Professions Code and designated by the Director of Alcoholic Beverage Control, provided that the primary duty of any of these peace officers shall be the enforcement of the laws relating to alcoholic beverages, as that duty is set forth in Section 25755 of the Business and Professions Code.
                        830.3 PC
                        The following persons are peace officers whose authority extends to any place in the state for the purpose of performing their primary duty or when making an arrest pursuant to Section 836 as to any public offense with respect to which there is immediate danger to person or property, or of the escape of the perpetrator of that offense, or pursuant to Section 8597 or 8598 of the Government Code. These peace officers may carry firearms only if authorized and under those terms and conditions as specified by their employing agencies:

                        (i) Either the Deputy Commissioner, Enforcement Branch of, or the Fraud Division Chief of, the Department of Insurance and those investigators designated by the deputy or the chief, provided that the primary duty of those investigators shall be the enforcement of Section 550.

                        California probably has over a million laws, many of which are not enforced, simply because there are so many that not everyone is familiar with them. A lot of agencies assume that because they are "law enforcement", blue lights are OK and don't realize they are in violation. Similarly, there can be (at times) a degree of arrogance among department heads who believe that because they are in charge, they can decide what law they will or will not obey. Unless someone calls CHP (who enforces such laws) and makes a formal complaint, you are unlikely to see any change.

                        As an example of blissful ignorance of obscure laws, Section 165(b)(1) of the California Vehicle Code defines an authorized emergency vehicle as any publicly owned vehicle operated by peace officers employed by a public agency, department, etc.

                        In addition, Section 25252 of the California Vehicle Code mandates that every Authorized Emergency Vehicle be equipped with a red warning lamp visible to the front for 1,000 feet. Yet, I can pretty much guarantee you that most of these 830.3 and 830.4 agencies who employ peace officers and investigators, put them out in the field in unmarked pool cars with no emergency eruipment at all, in spite of their legal mandate to do so, either because they don't know of the requirement or choose not to comply..
                        Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by L-1 View Post

                          California probably has over a million laws, many of which are not enforced, simply because there are so many that not everyone is familiar with them. A lot of agencies assume that because they are "law enforcement", blue lights are OK and don't realize they are in violation. Similarly, there can be (at times) a degree of arrogance among department heads who believe that because they are in charge, they can decide what law they will or will not obey. Unless someone calls CHP (who enforces such laws) and makes a formal complaint, you are unlikely to see any change.

                          As an example of blissful ignorance of obscure laws, Section 165(b)(1) of the California Vehicle Code defines an authorized emergency vehicle as any publicly owned vehicle operated by peace officers employed by a public agency, department, etc.

                          In addition, Section 25252 of the California Vehicle Code mandates that every Authorized Emergency Vehicle be equipped with a red warning lamp visible to the front for 1,000 feet. Yet, I can pretty much guarantee you that most of these 830.3 and 830.4 agencies who employ peace officers and investigators, put them out in the field in unmarked pool cars with no emergency eruipment at all, in spite of their legal mandate to do so, either because they don't know of the requirement or choose not to comply..
                          Yeah, L-1 hit the nail on the head. Agencies like DMV have been trying to get the law changed so they can forgo having only red lights in their cars and instead make them legitimately code-3 equipped (adding the blues and the siren). Rumor has it their vehicles used to be code-3 equipped until CHP stepped in. Agencies like Insurance just don't care, and as L-1 noted, no one's gonna stop them.

                          Either way, the only time you'll use lights at one of these agencies is if you roll up on a fresh accident.

                          Unless you're ABC...

                          https://www.kcra.com/article/why-alc...ckets/9913029#

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Boot1811 View Post

                            Yeah, L-1 hit the nail on the head. Agencies like DMV have been trying to get the law changed so they can forgo having only red lights in their cars and instead make them legitimately code-3 equipped (adding the blues and the siren). Rumor has it their vehicles used to be code-3 equipped until CHP stepped in. Agencies like Insurance just don't care, and as L-1 noted, no one's gonna stop them.

                            Either way, the only time you'll use lights at one of these agencies is if you roll up on a fresh accident.

                            Unless you're ABC...

                            https://www.kcra.com/article/why-alc...ckets/9913029#
                            That is an interesting subject that has become a thorne in the side of management.

                            Many years ago, Fish & Game had a Warden who spent an inordinate amount of time making traffic stops and issuing traffic citations for Vehicle Code violations. His superiors repeatedly warned him that his primary mission was to be a fish cop, that conservation enforcement was what he was being paid to do, and that traffic enforcement was not the responsibility of Fish & Game. Nonetheless, he continued playing CHP and they fired him.

                            The Warden appealed, won and got his job back along with retroactive pay and benefits. In siding with the Warden, the court pointed out that with respect to peace officers, the PC 830 sections state that each peace officer category has authority anywhere in the state and provides a primary mission. But the court noted that the Legislatively appointed mission is "primary" and not exclusive. This gave peace officers the discretionary latitude to take enforcement action outside their primary mission provided it did not cause them to significantly neglect their primary duties. Until such time as an employer can demonstrate that doing something like engaging in traffic enforcement significantly interferes with carrying out an officer's primary mission, an employing agency will have difficulty prohibiting it.

                            Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Good discussion L-1 and Boot1811, especially with respect to L-1's point about 25252 VC mandating that all authorized emergency vehicles (165 VC) shall be equipped with red light - I had never thought about that section as a hard requirement but the language sure does make it so.

                              And with respect to Boot1811's discussion about legislative change, that is actually how I originally started to take a closer look at this statute. Relatively recently, Probation Officers successfully lobbied to be included in 25258(b)(1) VC for blue lights.

                              Comment

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