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Us vs. Them Mindset in CA (Agency vs Agency)?

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  • Us vs. Them Mindset in CA (Agency vs Agency)?

    I am a federal LEO looking to get out to CA. I was wondering what the mindset is towards federal natural resource (US Forest Service, BLM, National Park Service) LEO's amongst the state and local LEO's?

    I know Park Service has authority under PC 830.8(c) to make arrests/write citations on National and State Park lands without sheriff approval.

    PC 830.8(a)(4) requires approval from the Sheriff for BLM and USFS to act as state peace officers.

    I am originally from WA and in WA everybody is essentially viewed as the same, the city officers don't hate the deputies, deputies don't hate the troopers and so on. It's pretty common here to go to a search/arrest warrant and see two different counties, a couple cities, a trooper, and a fish and wildlife officer there, and are only there to help, not because they had some type of involvement in the case. Then I have worked in a state where the city guys didn't talk to the county guys, state guys just talked to state guys, and the county guys hated the feds.

    A friend of mine worked in CA for awhile prior to coming to WA and he said in some areas of CA it is very much a "us vs them" when it came to other agencies, and in others it's a big brotherhood (like it is in WA)
    Last edited by wildlife97; 12-24-2013, 12:14 AM.

  • #2
    A lot depends on what you do and where you work. It can be an issue in the metro areas but it’s not us vs. them.

    If you look through the various subsections of 830 PC, you will see that law enforcement here is highly specialized. We have many peace officer positions where people are hired to concentrate on one unique aspect of enforcement. Because their mission, training and experience is so focused, they often to not mix well when attempting to work in the same environment.

    Specialized peace officers usually do not have a lot of expertise and training outside their area of specialization. For example, a fish cop may not be well versed in handling matters outside the Fish and Game code, a highway patrol officer may not be up to speed on a lot of non-traffic matters, a DMV investigator may not be familiar with matters outside licensing, forgery and fraud issues. In addition, each agency has different levels of training, along with different policies and procedures on traffic stops, suspect control, use of force, pursuit procedures, enforcement philosophy, etc., so not everyone is on the same page when you play mix and match.

    It’s not a case of us vs. them, but more a case of preferring to work with officers who share the same training, knowledge and experience, to make sure you are all pulling in the same direction and not tripping over each other’s feet.

    Now, if you are working in the boonies where cops are far and few between, you pretty much learn to work those differences out, get a game plan set up and work well together.
    Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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    • #3
      There is only a small amount of federal land in my Coumty and the solo F&W Officer isn't popular among the hunters in the surrounding departments (but that is on a personal level). While on duty I have never been called to assist. By and large Uniforms get a nod and a "how are you?". ICE, especially when they do raid and bring in 30 people to the jail at once and tie up all the other agencies... They lose popularity quick.
      semper destravit

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      • #4
        As others have said, it depends on where in the state you and what agency you are working for.

        Feds aren't real popular in SoCal right now......LA anyway

        Also, when a certain federal agency gets one of your fellow Deputies killed due to their completely effed off tactics, it tends to poison the outlook for a LONG time
        The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

        "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

        "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

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        • #5
          Also, as we have pointed out numerous times to others, the majority of us are looking to get OUT of this hellhole of a socialist republic....any particular reason you are looking to move here, besides the weather?....as the weather is about all this state has going for it
          The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

          "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

          "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by L-1 View Post
            Specialized peace officers usually do not have a lot of expertise and training outside their area of specialization. For example, a fish cop may not be well versed in handling matters outside the Fish and Game code, a highway patrol officer may not be up to speed on a lot of non-traffic matters, a DMV investigator may not be familiar with matters outside licensing, forgery and fraud issues. In addition, each agency has different levels of training, along with different policies and procedures on traffic stops, suspect control, use of force, pursuit procedures, enforcement philosophy, etc., so not everyone is on the same page when you play mix and match.
            Ya I guess that is what is different from CA and WA (and other NW states) up here all LEOs go to the same academy, except for the State Patrol which has their own. So in one academy class you may have 5 different cities, 5 different counties, 3 fish and wildlife officers, gambling commission, liquor control and state parks.

            When everybody goes through the state academy, that means every officer in the state no matter if your a deputy, F&W Officer, or liquor enforcement officer was taught the same thing the same way. I know that's not the case in CA since there are so many different academies with their own different variations of how they do things. Right now Liquor Control doesn't have full officer authority (although there is legislation changing this) and can only do drugs, alcohol, and tobacco crimes. Yet they go through EVOC, sex crimes and all other courses in the academy like everyone else.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by LA DEP View Post
              As others have said, it depends on where in the state you and what agency you are working for.

              Feds aren't real popular in SoCal right now......LA anyway
              Well I am mainly talking about getting to the Santa Monica Mountains National Park Service land in LA and Ventura Counties. I know the LA County Sherriff "deputizes" US Forest Service in his county under PC 830.8(b). So I don't know if there is much hate between the LA County Deputies and USFS LEOs.

              Like I already said, the state grants National Park Service LE state authority on NPS and Cal State Park lands. Just seeing how likely the Ventura and/or LA County Sheriff's would "deputize" NPS LEOs under 830.8(b) in their counties considering how scrambled the NPS lands are in the area.

              I know a couple counties in NorCal have stopped deputizing USFS, and the El Dorado Sheriff stripped USFS of their state peace officer authority this year.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LA DEP View Post
                Also, as we have pointed out numerous times to others, the majority of us are looking to get OUT of this hellhole of a socialist republic....any particular reason you are looking to move here, besides the weather?....as the weather is about all this state has going for it
                Well then don't come to WA. In WA pretext stops are unconstitutional, DUI checkpoints are illegal, you can't run someone for warrants for non-traffic infractions other then natural resource infractions (but if dispatch does it on their own it's ok, you just can't tell them to do it), the state legislature is so up on reducing court costs that they try to decriminalize just about every offense out there and make it an infraction instead of a misdemeanor. Oh and marijuana is legal for everyone

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wildlife97 View Post
                  Ya I guess that is what is different from CA and WA (and other NW states) up here all LEOs go to the same academy, except for the State Patrol which has their own. So in one academy class you may have 5 different cities, 5 different counties, 3 fish and wildlife officers, gambling commission, liquor control and state parks.

                  When everybody goes through the state academy, that means every officer in the state no matter if your a deputy, F&W Officer, or liquor enforcement officer was taught the same thing the same way. I know that's not the case in CA since there are so many different academies with their own different variations of how they do things. Right now Liquor Control doesn't have full officer authority (although there is legislation changing this) and can only do drugs, alcohol, and tobacco crimes. Yet they go through EVOC, sex crimes and all other courses in the academy like everyone else.
                  Just because you’ve had training doesn’t mean you are capable of handling things. You need to be able to employ the training over and over in real life, otherwise you forget what you were taught or don't know how to use it effectively. Repetitive expertise is a big issue. For example, city PD or county SO personnel routinely handle in progress, high risk incidents. After a while it almost becomes an ingrained process or rhythm for them when they roll up on a robbery in progress, burglary in progress, etc. Because of their shared, repetitive expertise, officers from different PDs or SOs in the same area are often on the same page when working an event of this nature together.

                  However, add a specialized officer to the mix who has little experience handling this type of incident, is not familiar with local agency tactics and procedures, command issues, etc., and his participation could turn out to be a hindrance rather than a benefit. Often those folks get asked to handle perimeter or traffic control rather than get in the middle of things, or are just told that no further assistance is needed.

                  When it comes to major incidents, other factors come into play as well. There are questions such as which department is in charge of the incident; which department bears responsibility (civilly and criminally) if things go south; which department’s policies and procedures will take precedence in handling the matter, etc.? As a result, agency purity in handling is not uncommon.

                  Of course as stated before, when you are in the boonies it can be a whole different game plan.
                  Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wildlife97 View Post
                    Well then don't come to WA. In WA pretext stops are unconstitutional, DUI checkpoints are illegal, you can't run someone for warrants for non-traffic infractions other then natural resource infractions (but if dispatch does it on their own it's ok, you just can't tell them to do it), the state legislature is so up on reducing court costs that they try to decriminalize just about every offense out there and make it an infraction instead of a misdemeanor. Oh and marijuana is legal for everyone
                    Good.....checkpoints need to be made illegal nationwide in my opinion...."papiere bitte' has no place in a free society.....never mind that they are a waste of taxpayer $$$$$....use that money to hire the same number of officers and send them out hunting the DUI drivers instead

                    I could care less about MJ being legal.....I hate the smell of it, but if you want to fry your brains smoking out, have at it.
                    The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

                    "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

                    "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      And I don't THINK anyone has too much angst with dealing the 'trout troopers' whether local or fed......its a couple of the other alphabet soup fed agencies that don't exactly 'feel the love'...
                      The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

                      "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

                      "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How can they tell what is a pretext stop and what isn't? If you have reasonable suspicion for a stop, you have it. A pretext stop is no different from any other stop, except that it might turn up more than another whoopee-big-deal traffic ticket.
                        Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

                        I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LA DEP View Post
                          As others have said, it depends on where in the state you and what agency you are working for.

                          Feds aren't real popular in SoCal right now......LA anyway

                          Also, when a certain federal agency gets one of your fellow Deputies killed due to their completely effed off tactics, it tends to poison the outlook for a LONG time
                          We were assisting some USSS agents looking for a counterfeiting suspect once. They knew the location this guy was at, so we pull up to the house, and the USSS guys all walk right up to the front door to knock. I asked one of them, "should someone cover the back in case this guy tries to run?" They turned and looked at me with a dumbfounded look on their faces.

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                          • #14
                            Wildlife97, I think you'll find relationships between Fed Nat Resource agencies and the locals will vary from place to place. Because we are so small, each individual officer can play a large part as to whether or not you get deputized, and what your relationship with the locals ends up being. ElDo County took away USFS's deputization due to one specific FS officer's retardedness, but they are one of my favorite agencies to work with.

                            L1, I figured you must be an LT or above after reading your posts, don't worry, I don't think any Fed Natural Resources officer will try and take over your incident scene like FBI, ATF etc,

                            I think we all have anecdotal stories about other agencies we can throw out. Everybody makes mistakes, FBI more than others of course...

                            Additionally, I agree with LADEP on checkpoints, ateamer on pretext stops, and I like long walks on the beach.
                            Last edited by Fox402; 12-25-2013, 04:28 PM. Reason: Clarity

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                            • #15
                              In my area the USFS guys and BLM rangers are decent at LE. The USFW and NPS LE people are super nice. The NPS guys got into a chase a few years ago and didn't know what to do when they caught the guy (in terms of using CA authority). I think they gave the guy a felony federal citation or some crazy thing. I don't think the feds should be granted CA authority without some training on our laws. I don't need someone trying to dump their cluster f*ck on me cause they can't handle it. You catch it, you clean it. I like watching Wild Justice where some DFG guys are calling out the deputies over a meth pinch. That doesn't happen here, we will cover you, assist you, be friends, but we aren't taking your pinch or paper. I actually think we have a better relationship in my area because of that. I formerly worked in one region that hated CHP with a passion. Mostly because CHP was always dumping stuff on us. In my current area CHP is very good about not doing that (they even handle shootings on freeways here) and we get along better.
                              Last edited by nobodyjr; 12-25-2013, 09:40 PM.

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