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  • Hard F.T.O. Program

    I was just wondering if the F.T.O. programs are being ran the way they used to be or has it changed do to the problems with hazing and other issues. I mean are the FTO' s still allowed to put some stress on the trainees such as having them knock on the door of a residence and ask what street he is on because he did not his location or bog him down with a reports and expect to have them finished the next day. Just wondering
    Last edited by valetudo39; 04-27-2011, 05:33 PM.
    Not all men can be U.S. Marines that is why there is the Army, Navy and Air Force.

  • #2
    Originally posted by valetudo39 View Post
    I was just wondering if the F.T.O. programs are being ran the way they used to be or has it changed do to the problems with hazing and other issues. I mean are the FTO' s still allowed to put some stress on the trainees or is that done with too.
    Theres a difference between hazing and an FTO making you handle every call possible, yelling at you and keeping you on your toes. Its all based on the person and what they feel is a proper way to teach. Some will yell all the time some wont. At the end of the day just do your best, be squared away on your tactics and officer safety because thats what will get you and your FTO possibly killed, learn as much as you can, and HAVE A GOOD ATTITUDE. Show a willingnesz to learn, stay professional, and you should be fine. Also different depts are different, were you referring to a certain dept?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Adams23 View Post
      Theres a difference between hazing and an FTO making you handle every call possible, yelling at you and keeping you on your toes. Its all based on the person and what they feel is a proper way to teach. Some will yell all the time some wont. At the end of the day just do your best, be squared away on your tactics and officer safety because thats what will get you and your FTO possibly killed, learn as much as you can, and HAVE A GOOD ATTITUDE. Show a willingnesz to learn, stay professional, and you should be fine. Also different depts are different, were you referring to a certain dept?
      No the agency I used to work for changed the program......we could longer be too hard on the trainees so they could pass the program. I was just wondering if other agencies were doing the same thing.
      Not all men can be U.S. Marines that is why there is the Army, Navy and Air Force.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by valetudo39 View Post
        I was just wondering if the F.T.O. programs are being ran the way they used to be or has it changed do to the problems with hazing and other issues. I mean are the FTO' s still allowed to put some stress on the trainees such as having them knock on the door of a residence and ask what street he is on because he did not his location or bog him down with a reports and expect to have them finished the next day. Just wondering
        Depends......you will lose your stripes very quickly (and quite possibly also catch an IA at the same time) if you do what you have posted above to the wrong trainee.

        Making the trainee write the paper on their own time without getting paid for it is also a good way to get you and your agency sued for vioation of FLSA laws.
        The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

        "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

        "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

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        • #5
          Originally posted by LA DEP View Post
          Depends......you will lose your stripes very quickly (and quite possibly also catch an IA at the same time) if you do what you have posted above to the wrong trainee.

          Making the trainee write the paper on their own time without getting paid for it is also a good way to get you and your agency sued for vioation of FLSA laws.
          Yeah I know....things have changed over the years due to the issue with FLSA. I had a buddy of mine that had a trainee actually cry and walked back to the station. He quit on the spot......needles to say they no longer used him as an FTO.
          Not all men can be U.S. Marines that is why there is the Army, Navy and Air Force.

          Comment


          • #6
            I am glad you brought this up. I have heard so many stories about how some depts are more focused on getting people up to speed and less on torture since they already got hammered during the academy. But then you hear others that don't think the academy was enough and hammer the **** out of their probationary boots to where they crack and quit or get fired before they are off probation. Torrance is one PD in particular I have heard is extremely hard on their people and the ordeal can last up to a year. Supposedly they have an inordinate amount of people who get all the way through the hiring and academy phases, only to be let go during FTO. Anybody know for real, or was this just hearsay?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Prospective View Post
              I am glad you brought this up. I have heard so many stories about how some depts are more focused on getting people up to speed and less on torture since they already got hammered during the academy. But then you hear others that don't think the academy was enough and hammer the **** out of their probationary boots to where they crack and quit or get fired before they are off probation. Torrance is one PD in particular I have heard is extremely hard on their people and the ordeal can last up to a year. Supposedly they have an inordinate amount of people who get all the way through the hiring and academy phases, only to be let go during FTO. Anybody know for real, or was this just hearsay?
              I have heard that about both Torrance and Cypress but that was 7 or 8 years ago. I also was told by an officer that TPD would hire more officers than they needed and then cut those they didn't need during FTO. I normally don't believe rumors but the fact that many different officers I spoke to with different agencies all had bad to say about those depts, was enough for me to never consider applying there.

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              • #8
                Irvine PD also has a notoriously difficult FTO program
                Other officer: Oh that's right, I forgot, you're God's gift to police work.
                Me: At least someone recognizes it.

                Turns out basic police work isn't so hard, you just have to leave the station.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Blizz View Post
                  Irvine PD also has a notoriously difficult FTO program
                  They (and a couple of other agencies) also have a very well deserved reputation of giving someone the boot right before the end of probation if they dont 'fit the mold'......no matter how squared away that recruit may be.
                  The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

                  "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

                  "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Changed considerably......for the worst.

                    Back in the day...if you didn't cut it.....you were gone period...no matter if you had rank. It was call to call to call...and your FTO volunteered you for everything. Have you done one of those yet? I can remember getting at least 8-10 reports a night...the only one I could complete on their time was in custody arrests. The rest was done on my time but before the next day of work....because I got another 8-10 reports. By the time you got out of the program..you were well versed in all the types of reports/incidents. The car was your office and you didn't go back to the station until the shift was over.

                    Fast forward to today. Neopotism runs rampant. The old school FTO's are gone. They have lowered the requirements to become a FTO. So FTO's today themselves don't have the "experience" to pass down to the youngens. If you're not cutting it...you are "extended" and extended. All reports are completed at the station before you put yourself back in service. There are some who have passed the FTO program and haven't taken reports like identity theft, elder abuse, domestics, child custody or have yet to see a dead body/coroner case!

                    I had 4 dead bodies in the first two days!

                    I am a firm believer the harder the FTO the better. If you aren't forced to learn or take/have the opportunity to learn..then the only one it hurts is you. You can only be as good as your FTO. A FTO is supposed to provide you the "foundation" where you take and apply that information and "build" what kind of officer you are going to be.

                    Something so important as officer safety...should never be overlooked. If someone isn't officer safety conscious and fails to recognize and correct it...then by all means they should fail the program. You either have it or you don't. And if you don't...bow out graciously because this isn't a game and when the sheeeot hits the fan...you can't call a time out.

                    I was approached many times to become a FTO. I declined after the old school ways values/ evals were revised to make the program "easier and less stressful".

                    Done with my rant.
                    This profession is not for people looking for positive reinforcement from the public. Very often it can be a thankless job and you can't desire accolades, because those are not usually forthcoming. Just do your job to the best of your ability and live with the decisions you've made.

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                    • #11
                      I would say that our dept is still very stress related. Some stations are a little worse than others, but for the most part they are all stress related FTO training. Unfortunately there are some boots that weren't cutting it and put a case on their T.O's.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by deputy x 2 View Post
                        Changed considerably......for the worst.

                        Back in the day...if you didn't cut it.....you were gone period...no matter if you had rank. It was call to call to call...and your FTO volunteered you for everything. Have you done one of those yet? I can remember getting at least 8-10 reports a night...the only one I could complete on their time was in custody arrests. The rest was done on my time but before the next day of work....because I got another 8-10 reports. By the time you got out of the program..you were well versed in all the types of reports/incidents. The car was your office and you didn't go back to the station until the shift was over.

                        Fast forward to today. Neopotism runs rampant. The old school FTO's are gone. They have lowered the requirements to become a FTO. So FTO's today themselves don't have the "experience" to pass down to the youngens. If you're not cutting it...you are "extended" and extended. All reports are completed at the station before you put yourself back in service. There are some who have passed the FTO program and haven't taken reports like identity theft, elder abuse, domestics, child custody or have yet to see a dead body/coroner case!

                        I had 4 dead bodies in the first two days!

                        I am a firm believer the harder the FTO the better. If you aren't forced to learn or take/have the opportunity to learn..then the only one it hurts is you. You can only be as good as your FTO. A FTO is supposed to provide you the "foundation" where you take and apply that information and "build" what kind of officer you are going to be.

                        Something so important as officer safety...should never be overlooked. If someone isn't officer safety conscious and fails to recognize and correct it...then by all means they should fail the program. You either have it or you don't. And if you don't...bow out graciously because this isn't a game and when the sheeeot hits the fan...you can't call a time out.

                        I was approached many times to become a FTO. I declined after the old school ways values/ evals were revised to make the program "easier and less stressful".

                        Done with my rant.
                        I hear you I had an FTO for two phases that believed we deputies were not paid to eat. This guy would eat sunflower seeds and drink coke all day. I used to starve so I then started bringing peanut butter sandwiches and put them in my war bag and every time I had to get something out of the trunk I would gobble as much of the sandwich as I could. Plus I would get stuck with an average of 5 to 9 reports a night and would stay up all night to write them. Needless to say that there where a lot of kicked back reports.

                        These days there are people that are working that would have never passed the FTO program from the old days which I think is bad. My buddy told me the other day that there was one female deputy that was on a call and the subject she was dealing with started yelling at her so she called for back up. When they arrived they found her sitting in her car with the doors locked and the subject standing near her unit. Man things have changed.
                        Not all men can be U.S. Marines that is why there is the Army, Navy and Air Force.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I've only yelled at a few trainees, it was always the kiss of death as none of them are employed by my agency any longer.
                          Today's Quote:

                          "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
                          Albert Einstein

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                          • #14
                            If yelling at a trainee, because he or she screwed up and could have potentially gotten hurt, is called hazing then the dept needs to re-evaluate it's program......but on that same note.....is it productive to yell at someone because he or she forgot the radio code for a low flying aircraft??

                            When I was on training.....I was left at the station at EOW by myself to complete a couple reports, and work on my training book..(the agency I worked for had a station in a county park somewhere in the SGV) I was told to make sure I locked the station and locked the entrance gate when I left, and at the time the department only had one unit countywide for earlys....and they came out of the south station.....I could have left when everyone cleared, but Heck no....for all I knew this was a test and my TO was sitting in the dark watching to see if I would leave.........The next day my TO asked me what time I left I think it was about an hour and a half after my shift....so I told him, and he said laughingly That it was an hour and 45 minutes........after that He backed off a bit and we concentrated on the work at hand.....
                            If there is a willingness to learn then why be harsh........

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                            • #15
                              The agency I retired from was also "notorious" for letting substandard probationers go, but we didn't haze people, we didn't yell at trainees and we didn't instruct them that it's okay for cops to violate any law (ie: FLSA) when it was convenient. Standards need to be set and adhered to, but why add to the considerable stress that the new officer is already experiencing?

                              There's a lot to learn as a trainee and FTOs don't need to give them examples of bad behavior as well as good. Adhere to the training requirements, demonstrate some patience with the newbies and set the bar "high" by providing a good example for them to emulate.
                              "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

                              Comment

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