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  • #31
    Originally posted by IE Copper View Post
    Police Officers carrying firearms do not stop crime. Should we stop carrying firearms? And if you meant to say that UOCers carrying firearms CANT stop crimes...you would be most definitely incorrect.
    I am curious; what leads you to believe that UOCers collectively believe that criminals and felons would be easily spotted among the UOC crowd? You talk as if these people are simpletons. I can assure you that they are not. And just to entertain your ridiculous comment, why would convicted felons UOC? UOCers are stopped and checked by law enforcement everywhere they go. I think that it is safe to assume that a criminal or convicted felon would conceal their firearm to avoid unwanted attention from law enforcement.
    //not if they-thugs know ,the cops can't stop "avg people" from OIC'ing. Criminals rely on the limits of Le to commit many of their crimes. People also FOOL themselves to think that everyone is "honest"- you won't know who's who unless toy "profile"- which is basically iunlawful. Please tell me, IE, how you are "going to know" who's who when you get to a call, and there's guns involved? and what makes you THINK that a "honest citizen" one minute, can't be a threat to your life the next? you can call my "opinions"( I don't make the law) ridiculous, but I plan on going home safely- i have encountered far too many " uncooperative victims" in serious calls as i have actual suspects- heated situations get officers hurt and even killed. what are you going to do when Joe Citizen tells you to F' off when he/she is amred and you are investigating a call ? feel comfortable all you want- not everyone cooperates with a cop, and i've seen many different people get emboldened when they have guns around...

    I have obviously been a strong supporter of UOC on these forums and I should admit that I go out shooting with a group of these "activists" (as they have been labeled here) often. These guys are top notch in all areas concerned with gun safety, tactics and proficiency. A couple of the guys I shoot with can draw, load, and shoot on target faster than I can draw and shoot with the same accuracy. I may have my front sight on target a fraction of a second quicker, but these guys shoot like some type of wild west gun slinger. Someone mentioned weapon retention, and to be fair, I have never seen them practice weapon retention. This is a fair point to bring up and I will be sure to mention it to them. Knowing these guys though, they will probably laugh and dare me to test them on it. They live and breath firearm proficiency.
    Those are your friends, and probably a tight knit group, but being proficient with a firearm is only a limited issue- ask your buds what they will do when it comes down to angry confrontation with an unarmed person? I remember many of my academy instructors, even my FTO's who reminded me that I am "bringing a gun to the fight"- and i have had quite a few confrontations, even with suposedly "good folks", who for some reason ,feel compelled to try for the holstered weapon. Put a gun in a fighers hand, and you've got an armed fight- put a gun in any persons hand,whether avid shooter, or sally suburbanite, and you've got an armed person- there is a difference.

    I find it odd that many of these OC folks werer silent when we had a conservative potus, yet spring out of the woods when they are told by the rightwing that the "socialists" are gonna' take their guns away( BTW,where are the guncollection centers the NRA and the conservatives claied OBamam would set up???) Crime is down, what are they scared off? Again, they can be all the quick draw they want- i'd love to see them justify shooting a fool in a fist fight- ain't gonna' happen......
    "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by DOAcop38 View Post
      //not if they-thugs know ,the cops can't stop "avg people" from OIC'ing. Criminals rely on the limits of Le to commit many of their crimes. People also FOOL themselves to think that everyone is "honest"- you won't know who's who unless toy "profile"- which is basically iunlawful. Please tell me, IE, how you are "going to know" who's who when you get to a call, and there's guns involved? and what makes you THINK that a "honest citizen" one minute, can't be a threat to your life the next? you can call my "opinions"( I don't make the law) ridiculous, but I plan on going home safely- i have encountered far too many " uncooperative victims" in serious calls as i have actual suspects- heated situations get officers hurt and even killed. what are you going to do when Joe Citizen tells you to F' off when he/she is amred and you are investigating a call ? feel comfortable all you want- not everyone cooperates with a cop, and i've seen many different people get emboldened when they have guns around...



      Those are your friends, and probably a tight knit group, but being proficient with a firearm is only a limited issue- ask your buds what they will do when it comes down to angry confrontation with an unarmed person? I remember many of my academy instructors, even my FTO's who reminded me that I am "bringing a gun to the fight"- and i have had quite a few confrontations, even with suposedly "good folks", who for some reason ,feel compelled to try for the holstered weapon. Put a gun in a fighers hand, and you've got an armed fight- put a gun in any persons hand,whether avid shooter, or sally suburbanite, and you've got an armed person- there is a difference.

      I find it odd that many of these OC folks werer silent when we had a conservative potus, yet spring out of the woods when they are told by the rightwing that the "socialists" are gonna' take their guns away( BTW,where are the guncollection centers the NRA and the conservatives claied OBamam would set up???) Crime is down, what are they scared off? Again, they can be all the quick draw they want- i'd love to see them justify shooting a fool in a fist fight- ain't gonna' happen......
      DOA, in the past I have typically just skimmed past your posts. I think that you often have insightful and intelligent things to say but all the random explanation marks, multiple questions marks, upper case, lower case, parenthesis, ...., !!!!!,????? "", misspelled words and such make me dizzy and make it a task in itself just read your posts. That said, I think that you are now mixing your hyped up style with random nonsense. I would try to respond to your post but you touched on so many ideas, and your writing was so confusing and dizzying that I don't think I can.

      I think that somewhere in that jumbled mess you asked what I would do if someone who is UOCing told me to "f*ck off" and walked away. If I had already conducted a compliance check and he was legit, I would "f*ck off" and walk away.
      "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." Winston Churchill

      Liberals are very broadminded: they are always willing to give careful consideration to both sides of the same side.

      Comment


      • #33
        And what was your reasoning for doing all that? What did you accomplish?
        Not all men can be U.S. Marines that is why there is the Army, Navy and Air Force.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by valetudo39 View Post
          And what was your reasoning for doing all that? What did you accomplish?
          He shows he has a very active imagination.
          sigpic
          Originally posted by Smurfette
          Lord have mercy. You're about as slick as the business side of duct tape.
          Originally posted by DAL
          You are without doubt a void surrounded by a sphincter muscle.

          Comment


          • #35
            If he were carrying an unloaded gun for self protection, he would not have had a magazine in the weapon. You can load faster if you do not have to drop the mag.

            So, I would infer that the purpose was to make people believe that he was carrying a loaded gun and/or to provoke a confrontation with the police -- which is precisely why police officers dislike the open carry demonstrators.
            Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
            Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

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            • #36
              I came across this guy one time while off duty. He had a security badge clipped on his belt and a gun inside a tucked waistband holster. I went up to him real casual and asked him why he had a gun acting like I was intrigued. He said he carried it around for self protection plus he did EP work. I asked him why he carried it openly and he said he legally could because it was empty. I told him that is going to attract a lot unwanted attention and he said he did not care. I just rolled my eyes and walked away......I thought to myself another nut bag.
              Last edited by valetudo39; 04-22-2011, 02:50 PM.
              Not all men can be U.S. Marines that is why there is the Army, Navy and Air Force.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by IE Copper View Post
                DOA, in the past I have typically just skimmed past your posts. I think that you often have insightful and intelligent things to say but all the random explanation marks, multiple questions marks, upper case, lower case, parenthesis, ...., !!!!!,????? "", misspelled words and such make me dizzy and make it a task in itself just read your posts. That said, I think that you are now mixing your hyped up style with random nonsense. I would try to respond to your post but you touched on so many ideas, and your writing was so confusing and dizzying that I don't think I can.

                I think that somewhere in that jumbled mess you asked what I would do if someone who is UOCing told me to "f*ck off" and walked away. If I had already conducted a compliance check and he was legit, I would "f*ck off" and walk away.
                hahaha! what can i say, "produc of LAUSD"-duly noted, as I do need o wear the glasses more often when I'm ranting!!! Bottom line, why support people who are determined to prove a point that doesn't need proving? As a LEO, I don't feel that "a-scared" to go out on a daily basis OFF duty, without my firearm, and even when I did, it didn't make a BIT of difference that I was armed- stilll got home safely.

                It truly amzaes me how so many people LIVE without being paranoid of the other people around them. If your OC friends want to play "quick draw" with their guns, fine. If they feel secure in walking around with family in tow ,with UNLOAED guns, fine still. But to think that as a LEO, if they so much as gave any slight indication they will NOT comply with a lawful investigation, they eat dirt like anyone else. You contradict your own stance, as you support the OC crowd, yet they feel that any "compliance checks" of them infringe on their "lawful rights", and the OC movements biggest tenet is that there is NO LEGAL reason to stop someone "lawfully exercising that right".

                Again, my issue is "how do you tell?" "Joe Hoodrat" may look like a loser, but does that justify you stopping him if he is in public and OC'ing( there was a issue about that up north where a dredd locked blk male was stopped "because he had a gun in a holster" on his side. Short and simple, you DON' know, and liberal walk around gun laws, allow alot of people -some who wouldn't chance a gun violation- to blend in with your everyday "law abiding citizen"- In one aspect, you are basically pushing LE into an even more reactionary stance.

                Once again, "MY OPINION", but the avg citizen doesn't need to go about with a hog leg, wild west style ,in this modern society. If folks want CCW, vote it in. but to BACK OFF on laws, in particular,those that are trying to promote public safety, you create more problems instead of diminsihing them.( or do we need to compare the issue to the "medical MJ B.S")
                "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Rossi357
                  UOC encounter with LEO.
                  This actually happened.
                  LEO aproaches me.
                  LEO: Hi, I see you are carrying.
                  Me: Hi.
                  LEO: I need to check you wepeon to see if it's unloaded.
                  ME: Help youself.
                  LEO fumbles with retention holster. Finally removes it.
                  LEO drops the empty mag...on the ground. Picks it up and verifies it's empty.
                  LEO tries to hand me the empty mag. I refuse to take it. He sticks it in his belt.
                  LEO racks the gun (cocking it) and verifies it's unloaded.
                  LEO puts the empty mag back in the cocked gun.
                  LEO tries to hand me the empty gun.
                  Me: I don't want to handle it, it may be considered brandishing.
                  LEO starts to return the gun to my holster.
                  Me: Please, decock the gun.
                  LEO: How do I do that.
                  Me: Put it on safe and rack it.
                  LEO holsters my gun.
                  LEO: What's your name?
                  Me: California is not a stop and ID state. I am not required to give you ID without PC or RS.
                  LEO: I need you name for my report.
                  Me: ..........
                  LEO: Have you ever been arrested before.
                  Me: I decline to answer any questions without legal advice. I do not consent to a search of my person or belongings.
                  Me: Are we done here.
                  LEO: Are you on parole or probation?
                  Me: That's a question.
                  Me: Are we done here. I have some personal business to attend to.
                  LEO: I guess so, Have a nice day.
                  Me: You too.
                  Sorry- I call BS on this one- you must have met "Barey Fyfe" as I don't think any coppers ( North Central or Southern Calif) would act or behave this way. and to tell the truth , I could see * "C/S" 148 PC hook for you, out of this. Police officer have the legal right to investigate what they beilieve to be a hazard to the public, and while its true that they should be versed on the current laws, alot are like the avg. citiizen- they aren't aware of the OC exemptions to firearms possession. I know there are sites where they allow citizens to download statutes to give to officers stopping people who engage in open carry, and that makes sense to me.


                  As far as "don't question me?" B.S. Well Moreno V.Baca basically got DUMPEd by the SCOTUS, so as long as there is reasonable suspicion, expect to get questioned about who you are- again- do you rweally THINK a police officer knows the difference betweren you as a supposedly "good citizen" and the knuckleheads out there? Give up you ID, let the officer do his/her thing, then go your way- the officer will probably go back to whomever you spooked with your "Wyatt Earp" look, and tell them you are good to go,like anyone else NOT committing a crime.....
                  "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Ted Nugent on gun control !!!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCHtw...eature=related


                    " I dont need another man to explain to me that I have the right to defend my gift of life. And that there is an argument in America ..... of a bunch of numbnuts who will dictate where, how, and if I can defend myself"
                    Last edited by Feb2nd1979; 04-22-2011, 04:35 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Feb2nd1979 View Post
                      Ted Nugent on gun control !!!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCHtw...eature=related


                      " I dont need another man to explain to me that I have the right to defend my gift of life. And that there is an argument in America ..... of a bunch of numbnuts who will dictate where, how, and if I can defend myself"
                      Ted Nugent does not live in California......we do
                      Not all men can be U.S. Marines that is why there is the Army, Navy and Air Force.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by valetudo39 View Post
                        Ted Nugent does not live in California......we do
                        I live in the Soviet Republic of California. I am a Cop in California. I love California even though I was raised in the south. I could careless about the OC movement. It is legal here. If and when case law or the law makers decide to make a statute which deems it illegal then just like everyother statute we will enforce it. If you encounter an OC'er deal with them morally, ethically, within the law and your departments policy and most importantly SAFELY just like you do every call and public encounter. It kills me how uptight most of you are.

                        Did you even click the link... It is a great, short video.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Feb2nd1979 View Post
                          I live in the Soviet Republic of California. I am a Cop in California. I love California even though I was raised in the south. I could careless about the OC movement. It is legal here. If and when case law or the law makers decide to make a statute which deems it illegal then just like everyother statute we will enforce it. If you encounter an OC'er deal with them morally, ethically, within the law and your departments policy and most importantly SAFELY just like you do every call and public encounter. It kills me how uptight most of you are.

                          Did you even click the link... It is a great, short video.
                          To be honest I wish the State would be the ones that issued CCW's like Arizona does instead the Sheriff's or Police chiefs. I would prefer law abiding citizens carry concealed than openly. I feel carrying openly is dangerous since most don't have the proper training to keep their weapons from being taken away from them. Shoot even LEO's don't get adequate gun retention training less citizens. Just my opinion of course.
                          Not all men can be U.S. Marines that is why there is the Army, Navy and Air Force.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Do you really want Kamala Harris to decide who gets a CCW permit?
                            Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                            Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              DOA, you keep bringing up the question of how do we determine which UOCer is a good guy, and which is a bad guy. Well, how do we determine which driver is a bad guy, or which pedestrian is a bad guy? You have also mentioned tactics, and how the danger involved in contacting a UOCer should somehow justify a ban on the practice. So, should we also ban people from driving vehicles? It's dangerous for LEOs to contact drivers on the freeway. Maybe we should ban marriage because DV calls are so dangerous.... My points may sound a bit over the top, but I am just following your lead.

                              All the "I am a sworn Officer and ONLY I should carry a gun" talk aside, the whole argument comes down to a few basic points:

                              1. UOCers have the right to exercise unloaded open carry.
                              2. Police can not deny them their right to UOC.
                              3. Many LEOs are dangerously uninformed about laws regarding UOC. The vast majority of LEOs would not know how to respond to a UOCer who refuses to identify himself.
                              4. The opinion shared by many law enforcement officers about the safety or good sense of UOC is unimportant when compared to the legality of the practice. They can legally do it. Period.
                              "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." Winston Churchill

                              Liberals are very broadminded: they are always willing to give careful consideration to both sides of the same side.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DAL View Post
                                Do you really want Kamala Harris to decide who gets a CCW permit?
                                Well in Arizona it is not up to the Attorney General on who gets the CCW. As long as you meet the state's requirements, have no criminal background and take a State approved CCW gun course you will get issued a CCW. That would be nice if it was the same here but it will never happen because people elect too many liberals who are anti-gun.
                                Not all men can be U.S. Marines that is why there is the Army, Navy and Air Force.

                                Comment

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