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Perceptions of British policing

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  • Sleuth
    replied
    Thanks for the update, CC. We visited a long time ago, as Range Officers for the World Pistol Championships (IPSC) - back when mere mortals could own handguns and the like. Obviously much has changed since then.

    The Sharia Courts as reported over here looked like replacements for the Crown Court (or whatever the correct name for your system is) in Muslim areas. Could a Muslim drinking alcohol in public (an offence in most of the US) be tried in a Sharia court in lieu of a Crown Court? In both??

    I always try to make every day a 'school day' and learn something.

    Thanks again

    Leave a comment:


  • Cockney Corner.
    replied
    Thanks for the further responses, which I have just caught up with on my return from my hols.

    Originally posted by Sleuth View Post
    As to the police museum in Scotland Yard, I asked some officers about it. They said they were not allowed to visit it, and tourists, even LE tourists, would not get in unless they were Chiefs of major departments or the like. As a US Federal Agent, I had no chance of getting into the museum.
    My understanding is that it is more a case of getting in touch with the curator at the "Black Museum" well in advance of any visit, rather as you would have to do if you wanted a ride-along. The Museum showcased many of its exhibits a couple of years ago to the general public at the Museum of London (which is free and well worth a visit for anyone coming to London) and it really was fascinating. Unfortunately that exhibition is no longer running and, last I heard anyway, the Black Museum itself is a) located inside New Scotland Yard and hence there are security issues and b) isn't open that much anyway as it is a volunteer type thing. The Metropolitan Police do have a separate museum open to the public in West London and the City Police have one in the City, as might be expected.

    All this was prior to the influx of "refugees" from Muslim countries, which may have changed the complexion of the society. I understand there are now 30+ Sharia courts operating in England - I don't know if they have exclusive authority, or what would happen if a resident of such an area violated UK law and Sharia law - who would have jurisdiction?
    There does seem to be a bit of confusion about Sharia courts in the UK. Simple answer, it's not as though a visitor to the UK will suddenly find themselves hauled in front of a Sharia court for eating a bacon sandwich. They determine questions of Muslim law, just as the Beth Din courts answer questions on Jewish law, and no-one seems worried about the existence of the latter. It's not even the case that if you are a Muslim, then you have to follow what they say (any more than a Jewish person doesn't have to keep shabbat if he doesn't want to) but if you are religious and want to keep on the right side of the Supreme Being, then it is probably the sort of thing you pay attention to. Being an atheist myself, it isn't something that affects me in any way, shape or form.

    There has been a minor issue as regards so-called Shariah Patrols in some areas; essentially, young Muslim men looking to bully people drinking alcohol, gays, "non-modestly dressed" females, that sort of thing. They don't have any status in law and, speaking as one who used to live and drink in pubs in the area of East London where this sort of behaviour was most widely reported, I never came across them. And if I had, I would have told them to go f*** themselves and that would have been the end of that.

    In fact, the only religious courts in England which actually have legal authority are the ecclesiastical courts - basically, the courts of the Church of England (or Episcopalian Church). But again, it isn't as though they can suddenly declare you a witch and burn you - basically you have to be in holy orders for them to have jurisdiction and the matters ruled on are often incredibly technical.

    I found a difference in the attitudes of the "helmeted' officers - "Bobbies" (unarmed), and the 'flat hats' who were armed. I don't know if that distinction is still in place.
    Sort of. Though I can't say it never happens, uniformed firearms officers don't wear the Great British Police helmet aka the Custodian aka the Top Hat aka the Tit. The reason is pretty simple - whilst being somewhat hot and uncomfortable to wear, the helmet offers almost no protection whatsoever and falls off almost immediately an officer has to get hands on. It isn't even particularly British - it was introduced in the mid to late nineteenth century as a direct copy of the German military pickelhaube helmet. Some English forces have, sensibly, eliminated it but others retain it out of a misplaced sense of nostalgia. Meanwhile firearms officers, on occasions when they can be persuaded to wear a hat which will mess up their lovely waxed hair, will generally wear a flat or patrol cap (which all uniformed officers get issued anyway) or simply a baseball cap.

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnKelly
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnKelly View Post
    My perceptions of British Policing are based on what I have read in various news reports, watching British TV productions and associating with ex British Police Officers now serving in various Australian Police Forces.

    Articles published in the following website also gives an insight to current events within the various UK Police Forces,

    https://www.policeoracle.com/

    My impressions based on the above are that the British Government wants policing on the cheap with the use of unpaid Special Constables, lower paid Police Community Support Officers
    and the introduction of civil servants into roles that were traditionally occupied by sworn officers.

    There also appears to be too much authority given to local government in the appointment so called Police and Crime Commissioners who have absolutely no experience as Police Commanders,

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8538196.html


    On the appearance of uniformed officers my view is that they are wearing uniforms that were designed for pounding the beat with Dixon of Dock Green and those yellow jackets puts them in the same league as construction workers.

    Anyhow, that's my contribution and all I can think of at this stage.

    Cheers.
    My guess is that you have enough info on our 'Perceptions Of British Policing' but given that The Old Bill was the foundation mode for many of the world's police forces it does make an interesting topic to continue.

    In my quoted message above I mentioned the authority given to local government in the appointment of the so called Police and Crime Commissioners; here is another example which must surely raise some eyebrows.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-49044340
    Last edited by JohnKelly; 07-20-2019, 11:04 PM. Reason: Spelling Correction

    Leave a comment:


  • Saluki89
    replied
    englandisameme.png
    You could end up in T R O U B L E

    Leave a comment:


  • Sleuth
    replied
    I have been able to travel widely - about 15 countries (and one US Territory). The greatest difference I noted was less in the police, but more in the people in the UK. There was much greater acceptance of 'Government rules' - a feeling that 'If the Government says "we should", then we will comply'. That feeling is totally absent in the US, where many relish "bending" the law. But this compliance is much of what allows the police in the UK to arrest folks unarmed. The officers I met were polite, friendly, and far less concerned about their personal safety than cops on this side of the pond.

    As to the police museum in Scotland Yard, I asked some officers about it. They said they were not allowed to visit it, and tourists, even LE tourists, would not get in unless they were Chiefs of major departments or the like. As a US Federal Agent, I had no chance of getting into the museum.

    All this was prior to the influx of "refugees" from Muslim countries, which may have changed the complexion of the society. I understand there are now 30+ Sharia courts operating in England - I don't know if they have exclusive authority, or what would happen if a resident of such an area violated UK law and Sharia law - who would have jurisdiction?

    I found a difference in the attitudes of the "helmeted' officers - "Bobbies" (unarmed), and the 'flat hats' who were armed. I don't know if that distinction is still in place.

    An interesting topic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ratatatat
    replied
    Speaking of bait, here's a joke:

    What do you call an experienced and highly valued employee in a bait shop?


    Leave a comment:


  • JohnKelly
    replied
    Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
    Five arrests in fifty years? Is that a common statistic for police in the UK?
    You already know the answer to that and I'm getting the gist of your previous posts within this topic.

    We know where you are going with topic and it's not happening, you need more experience in bait laying.
    Last edited by JohnKelly; 07-14-2019, 12:06 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CCCSD
    replied
    Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
    Five arrests in fifty years? Is that a common statistic for police in the UK?


    Crosspost to "Police and Society: Cops or Official Greeters??"
    He’s a volunteer, like a limited status reserve.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ratatatat
    replied
    Five arrests in fifty years? Is that a common statistic for police in the UK?


    Crosspost to "Police and Society: Cops or Official Greeters??"

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnKelly
    replied
    Good on you Richard and that's a pretty impressive rack of gongs you've got,

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...olice-17996563

    Best wishes

    Leave a comment:


  • Ratatatat
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnKelly
    replied
    Originally posted by CCCSD View Post
    No. We won’t. That is a system that is rapidly failing.

    What is your perception of British police officers? - I am finding this to be an interesting topic in terms of international policing and would like it to run its course; surely life in The Land of The Free can be another topic in another forum.

    Leave a comment:


  • retired1995
    replied
    Originally posted by Cockney Corner. View Post

    Well, I wasn't going to respond since I did post to hear people's opinions, but go on then, just this once.



    I assume he was referring to the oath he and I took to:

    [W]ell and truly serve Our Sovereign Lady The Queen in the office of constable, without favour or affection, malice or ill will; and that I will to the best of my power cause the peace to be kept and preserved, and prevent all offences against the persons and properties of Her Majesty’s subjects [...]"

    We hold the office of constable from the Crown, not the Government. As such, for example, I cannot be ordered by anyone to make an arrest. Not by the Prime Minister, not by a Chief Constable.



    The Queen is above politics. She has been the monarch since Truman was President, has had thirteen different Prime Ministers, all with various political positions and has never seriously been accused of partiality.



    Of course it is. You don't have hereditary surgeons or hereditary pilots. There are pieces of orange peel floating down the Thames who would make better sovereigns than ones we have had in the past. But we are very fortunate to have a person on the throne at present who is an excellent Head of State.
    Well done, sir!

    Leave a comment:


  • CCCSD
    replied
    No. We won’t. That is a system that is rapidly failing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cockney Corner.
    replied
    Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
    Interesting. Not sure I fully understand the concept of peace officer authority granted not by the state but by a royal matriarch, but there's a lot of things I don't understand.
    Well, The Queen is the state. Literally. All laws are Her Majesty's (as promulgated by Parliament). The Queen cannot be arrested or tried (short of a revolution) since she is literally The Law (somewhat like Judge Dredd). All property ultimately belongs to HM (so we hold property either freehold or leasehold, with the former meaning free of title except for the fact that it belongs to the Crown).

    And it gets back to your original question: What is your perception of British police officers? Answer: fascinating system but one we rejected 243 years ago.
    You'll come round.

    Leave a comment:

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