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  • Sleuth
    replied
    I have a few rounds of some of that ammo. While I much prefer hollowpoints, the bean counters do get to set the rules. Shot placement is still the critical factor.

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  • Cold Zero
    replied
    We just switched from Action 3 to Action Defence or something like that. Maybe that's what you call the action 4.
    The Action 3 was a real penetrator but a lousy man stopper.

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  • Achim_ger
    replied
    in lower saxony, we have the amunition dynamit nobel -action 4-.



    Achim

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  • Prussian
    replied
    Originally posted by Sleuth
    [...]Jacketed Hollow Point is the 'standard' here, but I understood some forces in the EU are not allowed to carry it.
    Short answer: German LE-organisations don't issue US-style hollow point ammunition, but moderately expanding ammunition like MEN's "Quick Defence PEP", Dynamit Nobel's "Action 4" , Hirtenberger's "EMB" or RUAG's "SeCa".

    Rather lengthly background: LE with "sworn officers" (Polizeivollzugsbeamte) in Germany is a "state right", with a few federal jurisdictions. For purposes of coordination the 16 state ministers of interior and the federal minister of interior (which are politically responsible for state/federal LE) have established a "conference of the ministers of interior" (IMK).
    After pressure from a police union the IMK issued a "technical guideline" that demanded a switch from FMJ to "expandable bullets" in 1999. But: they didn't wanted very expandable hollow point bullets, for two reasons:
    a) political: expanding bullets have a quite bad press over here. Politicians don't like possible "misinformed" headlines like "police issues Dum-Dum bullets - illegal by Hague Convention"...
    b) tactical: statistical analysis of German shootings indicates that there is a need for a certain amount of penetration (car windshields, car doors, etc), while over-penetration by FMJ is seldom an issue.
    So the standards set out in the 1999 "technical guideline" (e.g.: max expansion of 12mm [~0.5 in], penetration of min 20cm [~9 in] in ballistic gelatin, penetration of min four 1mm sheets of steel) aren't met by US-style hollow points.

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  • Sleuth
    replied
    Achim, what kind of ammo are you issued? Jacketed Hollow Point is the 'standard' here, but I understood some forces in the EU are not allowed to carry it.

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  • Achim_ger
    replied
    i like my P2000. it is the best gun what i had in my policecareer. a very exact gun. not to big and not to small. with the right ammunition a good thing.

    my first gun was the the P6 (SigSauer P225), when i was at the BGS (Bundesgrenzschutz = Federal Border Police). then i had the P7 from Heckler & Koch when i changed to the lower saxony police.



    Achim

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  • Sleuth
    replied
    Cold Zero, it just proves that all police mangers have their brains removed.
    I was stationed on our Souther Border with Mexico, tracking smugglers across the desert. We wore boots, jeans, and polo shirts (with a camo jacket handy to throw over it). Some idiot in our HQ in Washington ordered us to wear suits and ties!
    That was it, I put in my papers to retire.
    Last edited by Sleuth; 09-27-2006, 12:45 PM.

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  • Cold Zero
    replied
    how do you like the P2000? All the European police have to switch to blue. Funny thing is we always wore blue, then had to switch to white because all the management wore that and now we have to start going back to blue again. Also they first gave white blouses, then decided we had to wear white blouses with patches. Everyone got 14 blouses (7 short sleeved and 7 long) times 50,000 times 2 for the two versions. And all for nothing. I sometimes can´t believe management.

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  • Achim_ger
    replied
    we have some changes in our department. 4 years ago, we get a new gun. the P2000 from Heckler & Koch with a safariland holstersystem. 16 Rounds per magazine in 9x19mm.

    last year, we get a new uniform. shirts and pants in the color Mitternachtsblau (midnightblue). it looks much better then our old uniform. (brown pants and kakhi shirts). but the best ist, the new uniform is more functional. enough bags and so on. i'll looking for some pics, then i'll post it.


    Achim

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  • Sleuth
    replied
    After what your people did to the Russians in The Winter War, most terrorists will leave you alone!

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  • Urkki
    replied
    The terrorism stuff that luckily does not exist in Finland yet, would be faced by the "Karhu" ( Bear ) ( Preparedness Unit ) of Helsinki City police department.

    If the terrorist suddenly strike the rest of Finland, the first encounter will be taken by ordinary cops from the local departments. We do have our single-fire MP5´s , shotguns and tactical protective gear. And the "tactical" training, I hope, will be taken more seriously by our employers. One have to remember, that we have lot´s of firearms owned by good citizens, but sometimes the weapons get off-hand and many times we have to do calls involving the thread of firearms. The thread of terror is minimal here compared to local madmen. Of course it wouldn´t take much ( for example some religious community ) to get their eyes in this country, because of some maybe foolish things our goverment or media would say.

    Luckily I work with some highly motivated teammates that are willing to do some
    training off-duty to keep the ( minimal ) good routine up.
    Last edited by Urkki; 09-14-2006, 08:47 PM.

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  • Sleuth
    replied
    Urkki, are you getting any counter-terrorism training? It's all the rage in the US, even though I live in the poorest county with exactly 2 "areas of interest" (power plants). My county is larger than two US states! But our Sheriff's Office is gearing up for a terrorist strike! And begging for Federal Funds - of course.

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  • Urkki
    replied
    Specially for Henrik M

    Just when I read your post, the almighty Kent was played in my winamp.

    About the cold weather, you manage , as my swede say´d overthere , by " wearing layers ". At winter you might sit by the office for several ours doing reports and suddenly you have to go for an russian truck gone off the highway and you stand for 6 hours by the road. Not to mention standoff for a gunman. The difference might easily be some 50 celsius!!

    Can´t wait the coming winter and the cold! We just managed the huge ( for Finland ) EU / Asia meetings. Most of us are just sucked off the juice...

    Leave a comment:


  • motorwaycop
    replied
    I know that the other members so far have posted far more intersesting answers, but I will tell you anyway!
    In UK it can differ greatly but for me inthe central area of england it is.
    Expandable metal baton Asp or similar. Quickcuff rigid handcuffs. Cs spray very small% actual cs. Leg restraints( 2 peices of velcro, but effective) Body armour worn all the time now and most effective against knives with some ballistic protection.
    My unit uses volvo T5 estate cars, range rovers, skoda VR6 and volvo s60 as unmarked patrol. There are also some toyota landcruisers and mercedes ml320 arpound but these are not particularly liked.
    We work 12 hrs shifts. 2 days 0700 - 1900, 2 nights 1900 - 0700, Then 4 days off.
    This is the best pattern I have worked in my 24 years service.
    We can call on armed support but these are few and far between. They have access to MP5 rifles and semi auto pistol. I am not sure which one. They have also been given taser and plastic/bean bag baton guns. They can be really usefult at times because they also carry night vision equipment. They have a pretty thankless task as senn recently in the tube shooting. Damned if you do damned if you don't!

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  • Cold Zero
    replied
    Netherlands.

    Yes we are armed.
    Walther P5 9mm. We carry a total of 16 rounds. Were in the process of getting a new pistol but they don´t even know what yet so that will take a lot of time.
    Our swat teams carry 8 extra rounds. Our riot squad has a few MP5´s but they are for stuff like WW3 breaking out.
    Our national swat teams (full time) carry the MP5 on very very high risk stuff and have acces to sniper rifles.
    Otherwise it´s just the P5. They recently got a few shotguns for beanbags but are only allowed to shoot at the legs with them. They are going to get the Glock 17 probably. Or shall i say they have the Glock 17 but aren´t allowed to use them.
    We don´t have any "trunk" weapons and are forbidden to have back up guns.

    Further we have OC, but not nearly as strong as US oc.
    We have a silly looking little baton we carry in a sleeve in our uniform pants.

    We have an ID card, no badge and recently got uniform blouses (white omg) with a silly patch on them.
    All the stuff we get issued is crap. So stuff like duty belts and shoes and equipment we all purchase ourselves, well at least the cops that take their own safety serious.
    Somewhere this year we are getting bulletproof vests! Yay! 2006 we get vests!
    Last week we had 2 murders, and seized 3 pistols, one rifle and had a mental patient running arround with a SIG SWAT rifle. But hey we got 16 rounds of non expanding 9mm hollowpoints in 25 year old guns! And who needs vests anyway? A .223 will go thru that anyway.
    We do have bulletproof vests in the trunk wich weigh like 35 pounds and make robocop look like a ballet dancer.

    We drive a variety of brands. All are civilian models do so they break down every week. Last week i picked up our patrol car and left the other at the garage. This week i´m picking up that one again and leaving this one as it broke down again.

    We are having as much trouble as the US with finding qualified people. In my department we have 4 two man cars for a city of almost 200,000. We have maybe two unarmed officers extra for small assignments.

    We don´t have any form of regular shifts. We works all shifts and mostly directly after eachother. This week i work 7 nine hour days in a row. I start with 3 early (0700 till 1630) shifts followed by a late shift (13:45 till 23:15) then a day shift (08:30 till 1800) then a super late shift (17:00 till 0200) and then another late shift. Then i´m off one day and then go for 6 shifts in a row.

    Our academy is now 4 years to become a full LEO.

    Leave a comment:

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