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  • What about Georgia?

    I am shocked no one in this forum has discussed this so:

    Georgia move fails to halt raids

    Russia has continued air raids deep inside Georgia, after it rejected Tbilisi's announcement that it had called a ceasefire and wanted talks.

    Jets bombed targets near Tbilisi, including the airport, and Russia said its warships had sunk a Georgian boat that approached and tried to attack.

    Russia earlier took control of the breakaway region of South Ossetia, forcing Georgian troops to withdraw.

    Meanwhile, the US administration has expressed strong support for Georgia.

    President George W Bush said that he told Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin: "This violence is unacceptable."

    At a meeting on the sidelines of the Olympic in Beijing on Friday, the US president said that all troops should return to their positions prior to the latest unrest, which began on 6 August.

    "I was very firm with Vladimir Putin," Mr Bush said.

    Meanwhile, Vice President Dick Cheney told Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili in a telephone conversation that "Russian aggression must not go unanswered".

    He said the events in Georgia would have "serious consequences" on Russia's relations with the United States.

    Earlier, the US ambassador at the UN accused Russia of seeking "regime change" in Georgia.

    Peace mission

    President Saakashvili told the BBC his forces had observed a ceasefire since 0500 on Sunday morning, but had still been bombed by Russian planes. He said his government had been trying "all day" to contact Russia to discuss a ceasefire.

    Russian jets were still carrying out bombing raids late on Sunday. Witnesses said jets had hit Tbilisi International Airport, as well as a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.

    The airport was hit only a few hours before French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb arrived on a peace mission.

    A Georgian official said earlier that Russian planes had bombed the western town of Zugdidi and Georgian-controlled territory inside Abkhazia. The claims could not be independently verified.

    Later Russia's navy said it had sunk what it called a Georgian missile boat that had approached at high speed and tried to attack Russian warships in the Black Sea.

    The conflict has caused civilian casualties and more are at risk
    Antonio Guterres
    UN High Commissioner for Refugees

    Meanwhile, there the US clashed with Russia at the United Nations Security Council, accusing it of seeking "regime change" in Georgia.

    The US ambassador to the UN, Zalmay Khalilzad, quoted Russia's foreign minister saying Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili "must go".

    He asked his Russian counterpart, Vitaly Churkin: "Is the goal of the Russian Federation to change the leadership of Georgia?"

    Mr Churkin did not directly answer the question, but said there were leaders who had "become an obstacle".

    The council has met for four days running, but has failed to agree on the wording of a statement calling for a ceasefire.

    But the US said it was preparing a draft resolution condemning Russia. Analysts said although Russia would veto such a statement, the US wanted to build backing for the motion to demonstrate international opinion.

    Clashes in South Ossetia itself were reported to be less intense on Sunday, as Russian forces took control and Georgian troops drew back.

    Please turn on JavaScript. Media requires JavaScript to play.

    Mikhail Saakashvili claims Russia has not respected the ceasefire

    Local residents fleeing the area on Sunday morning told the BBC that Tskhinvali was relatively quiet.

    Later, however, the BBC's Richard Galpin described a sense of panic on Sunday night in the Georgian town of Gori, near South Ossetia, amid fears that Russian troops were about to march on the town.

    He had been warned by the interior ministry to leave Gori, only to find that the road to Tbilisi was crammed with cars full of fleeing civilians.

    'Disproportionate force'

    Georgia's announcement of its ceasefire came in a statement from the foreign ministry, stating that Georgia "today stopped firing in the South Ossetian conflict zone and is ready to begin talks with Russia on a ceasefire and cessation of hostilities".

    It said a note had been passed to the Russian embassy in Georgia to that effect.


    ARMED FORCES COMPARED

    GEORGIA

    Total personnel: 26,900
    Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
    Armoured personnel carriers: 139
    Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
    Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95

    RUSSIA
    Total personnel: 641,000
    Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
    Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
    Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
    Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550
    Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments

    But a Russian foreign ministry official was quoted by Interfax saying "our information does not confirm the Georgian statement".

    "There are indications that exchanges of fire are continuing and the Georgian forces have not been fully withdrawn from the conflict zone," he said.

    The United Nations refugee agency (UNHCR) called on the parties to the conflict to grant safe passage for thousands of civilians trying to escape the war zone.

    The UNHCR estimates that between 10,000 and 20,000 people have been displaced within Georgia, including South Ossetia, while Russia has said that a further 30,000 people have fled north into the Russian province of North Ossetia.

    "The conflict has caused civilian casualties and more are at risk," UN High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres said.

    "It is essential that humanitarian agencies be able to reach the affected and the displaced."

    Meanwhile tensions were rising in Georgia's other breakaway region, Abkhazia.

    The leader of the separatist government there, Sergei Bagapsh, said he had ordered a military operation to clear Georgian forces out of Abkhazia's Kodori Gorge, and gave them a deadline to leave.

    Georgia has accused Russia of landing 4,000 more troops in Abkhazia via the Black Sea. The separatists said Georgia had deployed a similar number of soldiers south of the Abkhaz border.
    What are others thoughts on this? I knew tensions had been high but I dont think anyone expected a full on incursion by the Russians. This could turn from bad to worse really quickly.
    "Against the machinations of your enemies you can take defense, but against the stupidity of fools, the very gods themselves fight in vain" ~ Johann C.F. Von Schiller


    "Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."
    --Thomas Jefferson

  • #2
    It's covered in Various Topics brother...


    Marines...

    “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

    "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

    Comment


    • #3
      HA... I just saw the post you put up in the other forum. Forgot the most important step..Recon.

      Ive always wanted to see Russia as well. Guess I need to get the Woodland MARPAT cammies back out of my seabag!
      "Against the machinations of your enemies you can take defense, but against the stupidity of fools, the very gods themselves fight in vain" ~ Johann C.F. Von Schiller


      "Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."
      --Thomas Jefferson

      Comment


      • #4
        GrndPndr tell all your buddies and to you too, good luck in Russia, TAKE PICS!!

        Comment


        • #5
          I see us going into the area as UN "Peacekeepers" and nothing really more then that.

          Georgia is our ally, but there are other ways to be an ally then military force..
          “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

          "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by farewelltonavy
            anyone here seriously thinks we're going to go into Georgia or Russia now?
            With what? Our resources are tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan. Putin, who still pulls the strings over there, is well aware of that fact. I also seriously doubt the USA would engage in active combat with another nuclear power anyway.
            sigpic
            Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun.
            And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by KapsFB View Post
              With what? Our resources are tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan. Putin, who still pulls the strings over there, is well aware of that fact. I also seriously doubt the USA would engage in active combat with another nuclear power anyway.
              So we just sit back and watch a country that sent 2,000 of its troops, which it only has 37,00 to begin with, to help in Iraq? Might I add that Georgia was the third largest contingency in Iraq behind us and the UK. Obviously, Moscow could care less that the whole western world is condemning them for their acts. The are sitting on a gold mine of natural resources and are very self sustaining if need be. They have built up militarily at an alarming rate and will keep rolling if they dont hit a wall. Not just the US needs to stand up. If Russia takes over Georgia and takes over the pipeline that runith through it, Western Europe will cringe when its shut off.

              It just bothers me that a little country that stuck its neck out for us (too much in my opinion) is going to be left flapping in the wind while the Western World sits with thumb inserted trying to hammer out a statement that condemns the invasion. If we truly let Georgia fend for itself, I wouldnt blame any country for refusing to align with NATO and the US.

              Put that Marine Expeditionary Unit on the Pelilu in Tablsi and punch out and set up a defense. Fire a warning shot across the bow of Russia. I doubt they will bite.
              "Against the machinations of your enemies you can take defense, but against the stupidity of fools, the very gods themselves fight in vain" ~ Johann C.F. Von Schiller


              "Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."
              --Thomas Jefferson

              Comment


              • #8
                Yea right, like that's going to happened. Plus, the Russians can play the US card of fighting terrorists that are threatening them at the border. We don't have the moral authority to tell them they can't invade countries anymore.
                Do you actually believe moral authority has anything to do with world politics?

                If there is some American Interest in this, there will be American Action.

                If we worked on Moral authority, we would have left Korea decades ago and would have troops all over Africa where there is some real work to be done.

                M-11
                “All men dream...... But not equally..
                Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it is vanity;
                but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,
                for they act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible.....”

                TE Lawrence

                Comment


                • #9
                  As I understand it, Ossetians are originally from Asia, not Eastern Europe. Most Ossetians are in a province of Russia (North Ossetia), and like Russia better than Georgia. South Ossetia is a region in which 2/3 of the population is Ossetian, and 1/3 is Georgian. When Georgia was part of the Soviet Union, it did not much matter whether South Ossetia was in Georgia or Russia.
                  Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                  Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KapsFB View Post
                    With what? Our resources are tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan. Putin, who still pulls the strings over there, is well aware of that fact. I also seriously doubt the USA would engage in active combat with another nuclear power anyway.
                    Our resources are NOT tied up in Iraq/Afghanistan. IT may SEEM like that, but believe me, there are plenty of troops, tanks, planes, and bombs NOT being used overseas right now..


                    Originally posted by farewelltonavy
                    I don't think we will either, but seemed like some on here thought that we would take sides and go help.

                    Yea right, like that's going to happened. Plus, the Russians can play the US card of fighting terrorists that are threatening them at the border. We don't have the moral authority to tell them they can't invade countries anymore.
                    I agree with Groundpounder. We have an obligation to Georgia for all they've done for us. If we ignore them, we'll lose a lot more then just one ally.

                    The card Russia is using is that they believe they OWN the land in Ossetia and pushed for Ossetia to rebel and seperate from Georgia. Which was happening for a time. When it did start to seperate, Russia decided to invade and take it over, hopeing that Georgia would be ****ed about Ossentia leaving and would make it easy for Russia to take over.

                    Seems Georgia won't let go, as it shouldn't.


                    Either way, I recommend we push this back over to Various topics so my lazy butt doesn't have to post the same thing over and over...
                    “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

                    "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GrndPnd0311 View Post
                      So we just sit back and watch a country that sent 2,000 of its troops, which it only has 37,00 to begin with, to help in Iraq? Might I add that Georgia was the third largest contingency in Iraq behind us and the UK. Obviously, Moscow could care less that the whole western world is condemning them for their acts. The are sitting on a gold mine of natural resources and are very self sustaining if need be. They have built up militarily at an alarming rate and will keep rolling if they dont hit a wall. Not just the US needs to stand up. If Russia takes over Georgia and takes over the pipeline that runith through it, Western Europe will cringe when its shut off.

                      It just bothers me that a little country that stuck its neck out for us (too much in my opinion) is going to be left flapping in the wind while the Western World sits with thumb inserted trying to hammer out a statement that condemns the invasion. If we truly let Georgia fend for itself, I wouldnt blame any country for refusing to align with NATO and the US.

                      Put that Marine Expeditionary Unit on the Pelilu in Tablsi and punch out and set up a defense. Fire a warning shot across the bow of Russia. I doubt they will bite.
                      You want us to go into there? Haven't you been complaining about Bush this, Bush that.
                      Those countries are to unstable anyway and it is a mistake to even offer them membership in NATO, which, if I'm not mistaken, the Europeans approved the offer a few months ago. Leave it up to them to drag us into another war with their game playing. None of those former Eastern block countries should be extended treaties that obligate us to go to war for them.
                      The liberal politician has the only job where they go to the office to work for everyone but those who pay their salary.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tony.o View Post
                        You want us to go into there? Haven't you been complaining about Bush this, Bush that.
                        Those countries are to unstable anyway and it is a mistake to even offer them membership in NATO, which, if I'm not mistaken, the Europeans approved the offer a few months ago. Leave it up to them to drag us into another war with their game playing. None of those former Eastern block countries should be extended treaties that obligate us to go to war for them.
                        A) Tony, you are comparing apples to oranges yet again. The Iraq move was stupid. Many Generals and the Counterinsurgency specialist for the Department of State Dr. Kilcullen have stressed that. Totally different.

                        B) Geroriga, as I put, is an ally (any way you cut it) and better than most. We and the UK pushed for them to become part of NATO which Germany and France blocked because of pressures by the Kremlin.

                        C) If you think this conflict isnt tied to all the rest of them (Iran and the sort) you must not be up to date on the chessboard. Putin is using these other countries as pawns to reassert the soviet empire. (Thats why Alphabet in Iran is buddy buddy with Putin. Theyre scratchin each others back)

                        Just because I disagree with Bush and McCain on many things doesnt mean I cant agree with them on others. To turn a blind eye to this event will have serious consequences down the road.
                        "Against the machinations of your enemies you can take defense, but against the stupidity of fools, the very gods themselves fight in vain" ~ Johann C.F. Von Schiller


                        "Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."
                        --Thomas Jefferson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          “As soldiers here, we help the American soldiers,” Cpl. Georgi N. Zedguidze explained, peering past the sun-scorched checkpoint where he was guarding a bridge over the Tigris River. “Then America as a country will help our country.”
                          A burst of machinegun fire in nearby fields sent everyone scattering for cover. Nukri Koshovidze, 47, a veteran of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, looked defeated and felt betrayed. “The Russians are killing many people in the villages, even old women, and the West doesn’t want to hear their screams,” he said.
                          "Against the machinations of your enemies you can take defense, but against the stupidity of fools, the very gods themselves fight in vain" ~ Johann C.F. Von Schiller


                          "Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."
                          --Thomas Jefferson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I wish someone would "reassert" the (U.S.) American Empire.
                            Monroe Doctrine stretch it to excuse our using more influence in South America (F.Venuzeuala) and a few other things...(Controling the panama canal indefinately).
                            Since we've already thrown out "Moral Autority" let us get down to the buisness of "ruling the world" of course were already "policing" it now.
                            Of course we simply protecting american interests...

                            Seriously though... its bad buisness to ignore our allies...
                            They will all look up to me and shout, "Save us!", and I will whisper back... "No."

                            LAW is not JUSTICE

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GrndPnd0311 View Post
                              A) Tony, you are comparing apples to oranges yet again. The Iraq move was stupid. Many Generals and the Counterinsurgency specialist for the Department of State Dr. Kilcullen have stressed that. Totally different.

                              B) Geroriga, as I put, is an ally (any way you cut it) and better than most. We and the UK pushed for them to become part of NATO which Germany and France blocked because of pressures by the Kremlin.

                              C) If you think this conflict isnt tied to all the rest of them (Iran and the sort) you must not be up to date on the chessboard. Putin is using these other countries as pawns to reassert the soviet empire. (Thats why Alphabet in Iran is buddy buddy with Putin. Theyre scratchin each others back)

                              Just because I disagree with Bush and McCain on many things doesnt mean I cant agree with them on others. To turn a blind eye to this event will have serious consequences down the road.
                              Oh, Yeah, your boy Obama sure as hell wouldn't send troops there.No President of these United States is going to send troops to confront the Russians, who are actively engaged in combat, in that country.

                              Besides, our population isn't prepared to sacrific for anything like this. We don't even demonize our enemies any longer and we sure aren't prepared to fight dirty or even fight to win like we would have to if it came down to it. Look what we do in Iraq, we fight a battle, then pay for some guys building if he can prove a coalition bomb blew it up. Hell, we're probably still sending foreign aid to Russia.
                              Your not going to find anybody in this country who wants to go to war in Goergia.
                              The liberal politician has the only job where they go to the office to work for everyone but those who pay their salary.

                              Comment

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