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Goodbye GM, FORD...it was nice knowing you

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  • Goodbye GM, FORD...it was nice knowing you


    Car pictured is exact model, and color of the one I own. My car is not a diesel.

    Bad news about the possibility of GM, Ford going bankrupt. I'll continue to keep the tradition of the 'BIG' cars. I drive a sleek, refurbished, rebuilt, '79 425 ci Caddy Fleetwood Brougham; Hot Edlebrock carb, Edlebrock cam, Edlebrock manifold, and Hooker headers with dual exhaust; front and rear sway bars, beefed up disc brakes (all around), nice rumbling flow-thru muffler, and a pair of white dice hanging from my rear-view mirror.

    What a ride. Scares the crap out of the Mustang boys when I pull away from them. After all, this old geezer behind the wheel, what's he know about ...........- F - A - S - T - . Pretty stealth, eh? Oh, it goes.



    ----------------------------------------------------------

    GM, Ford `On the Verge of Bankruptcy,' Altman Says (Update2)
    By Greg Miles and Caroline Salas

    July 22 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co., the two biggest U.S. automakers, have about a 46 percent chance of default within five years, according to Edward Altman, a finance professor at New York University's Stern School of Business.

    ``Both are in very serious shape and the markets reflect that,'' Altman, the creator of the Z-score mathematical formula that measures bankruptcy risk, said in an interview with Bloomberg Television. The model shows that these companies are ``on the verge of bankruptcy,'' he said.

    The Z-scores for GM and Ford give both a bond rating equivalent to a CCC ranking, though GM is in slightly worse condition than Ford, Altman said. GM reported a $38.7 billion loss in 2007, the biggest in its 100-year history, and hasn't posted a profit since 2004. The scores are based on the companies' finances at the end of the first quarter.

    Moody's Investors Service said July 15 it may cut GM's Caa1 senior unsecured debt rating because the Detroit-based automaker's plan to raise at least $15 billion by suspending its dividend, cutting management payroll by 20 percent and selling assets may not be enough to offset losses. Standard & Poor's also said in June it may lower GM's B rating. Altman said the plan to raise $15 billion may improve GM's outlook.

    Ford, based in Dearborn, Michigan, is rated Caa1 by Moody's and B by S&P, which said in June that Ford's rating may also be cut.

    Ability to Refinance

    ``The thing that triggers a default in almost all cases is running out of cash and not being able to refinance,'' Altman said in an interview prior to his television appearance. ``You're not going to go bankrupt as long as you can refinance short-term liabilities. You will go bankrupt if you can't.''

    In 2005, Altman said GM had a 47 percent chance of default within five years.

    GM Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner said in an interview July 15 that the company has the ability to raise cash, and he called bankruptcy ``a bad idea.'' Ford has said it had access to $40.6 billion in funds as of March 31, including credit lines.

    GM's $3 billion of 8.375 percent bonds due in 2033 rose 0.5 cent today to 58.5 cents, according to Trace, the bond-price reporting system of the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority. The debt yields 14.6 percent, or 994 basis points more than similar-maturity Treasuries. A basis point is 0.01 percentage point.

    ``I would not put money with GM right now because the downside is so great relative to the upside, relative to the yield,'' said Altman, speaking in New York. ``Your downside is probably 60 percent on the debt. The risk reward ratio is pretty poor.''

    To contact the reporters on this story: Greg Miles in New York at [email protected]; Caroline Salas in New York at [email protected]
    Last Updated: July 22, 2008 16:18 EDT

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...efer=worldwide
    Last edited by Stormy; 07-23-2008, 02:42 AM.

  • #2
    Sad- the nation that gave the world automobiles... we in America have been made arrogant by our own success- something our founding fathers would be ****ED to see. No one can tell me that IF the big 3 wanted to build cars that could kick the snot out of foriegn competition,they could do so without an effort!! ( test drove a cadi CTS and it runs with my Inifiniti M45 any day of the week in terms of style,power and comfort); here in Ca. it actually was the auto industry that got in bed with the oil industry to stomp out alot of our public transportation systems- now we are regretting it becuase the big 3 simply seem to REFUSE to build more efficient fuel vehicles( what happened to electric cars?????)
    "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

    Comment


    • #3
      It's not the employer who caused the biggest problem with the big three. UAW is one of the biggest casues for their $$$ problems. The big pay, outlandish benefits have finally put them on the verge of going out of business.

      As far as fuel efficiency, one of the US auto makers has more models with 30+ MPG than any other company. It's not that they don't make them, WE didn't buy enough of them because WE wanted big V-8's with 18 MPG.
      A Veteran is someone who at one point in their life wrote a blank check made payable to The United States of America, for an amount up to, and including their life. That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today, who no longer understand that fact!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ray8285 View Post
        It's not the employer who caused the biggest problem with the big three. UAW is one of the biggest casues for their $$$ problems. The big pay, outlandish benefits have finally put them on the verge of going out of business.

        As far as fuel efficiency, one of the US auto makers has more models with 30+ MPG than any other company. It's not that they don't make them, WE didn't buy enough of them because WE wanted big V-8's with 18 MPG.
        The retired UAW worker gets 95% of his yearly income plus full medical benefits, including eyeglasses and dental. CRIKEY! That's a lot of cabbage heads GM has to pick to make a profit.

        Well, too bad. It's all coming to an end.

        ps. ray, I get 13 mpg........but the car goes like a bat from HELL

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by farewelltonavy
          Well I am a firm believer that anyone who works their whole life for a company, deserves as many benefits as they can get.
          I disagree. The benefits are; you've got a job. Period. Henry Ford paid the most money to his employees at that time. But he demanded that they work, and not pick their noses. To rely on retirement benefits is a welfare mentality. Your retirement benefits should come from the savings, and personal investments you've accumulated all those years of working.
          I really blame their shortsightedness and greed (laziness too) for not thinking ahead in the future and continuing to make big gas guzzlers. At at same time, Japanese automakers were investing in fuel efficient small cars, American carmakers thought that because they had the market share, they didn't need to worry about the future.
          Shortsightedness will be the fall of this country in my opinion!
          They were not short-sighted, they knew what they were doing. Especially when on the one hand you manufacture automobiles, and on the other hand you invest in oil drilling, exploration, and fuel distribution; a lovely combination. What? You seem to think they're on our side?

          Comment


          • #6
            [QUOTE=ray8285;1342876]It's not the employer who caused the biggest problem with the big three. UAW is one of the biggest casues for their $$$ problems. The big pay, outlandish benefits have finally put them on the verge of going out of business.

            Some of that is true, not all. My Dad retired from GM with 29 years of service, only missing four days of work. He would only buy American cars. They closed his plant that he started at in Norwood, he waited two years barely making enough money to get by. Finally he was transfered to Fort Wayne Ind., making two house payments, so he would not have to pull my brother out of high school. He got transfered again to Dayton Ohio, where he drove one hour each way to work. His health benefits just changed and it is not that great. I do believe that unions caused a big hit to the company, I often remember him going on strike, for what now seems to be little petty things. Anyway, he doesn't have the best retirement that is for sure, he works part time still just to make ends meet.
            "Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be.But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior’s path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.-On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs
            (From the book, On Combat, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman)

            Comment


            • #7
              [QUOTE=crimijuswoman;1343044]
              Originally posted by ray8285 View Post
              It's not the employer who caused the biggest problem with the big three. UAW is one of the biggest casues for their $$$ problems. The big pay, outlandish benefits have finally put them on the verge of going out of business.

              Some of that is true, not all. My Dad retired from GM with 29 years of service, only missing four days of work. He would only buy American cars. They closed his plant that he started at in Norwood, he waited two years barely making enough money to get by. Finally he was transfered to Fort Wayne Ind., making two house payments, so he would not have to pull my brother out of high school. He got transfered again to Dayton Ohio, where he drove one hour each way to work. His health benefits just changed and it is not that great. I do believe that unions caused a big hit to the company, I often remember him going on strike, for what now seems to be little petty things. Anyway, he doesn't have the best retirement that is for sure, he works part time still just to make ends meet.

              I made a post that retired UAW workers make 95% in retirement pay. How much of that is true?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by farewelltonavy
                Well I am a border line socialist, so I think that if you work your life for a company, you should at least be guaranteed a retirement and benefits. That's how you repay your hard work and commitment to a company.

                For the second part, I know automakers and oil companies were making mad money, while we were buying huge SUVs. And guess who got hurt in the end? the workers that worked their whole lives for a company who was worried about CEO benefits and not long term operations.
                You are rewarded for hard work and loyalty by keeping your job, everything else is gravy. Benefits are relatively new. The majority of companies didn't make a habit of offering bennies until the 50's. The only reason they did then was so smaller companies could compete against larger ones. Smaller companied couldn't match salaries so they offset it by paying for medical. Now that medical costs are so high, it is no longer fiscally smart for many companies to offer bennies and pay, so they cut the bennies.

                The problem isn't the cut of benefits, it's the lack of increase in pay to offset the lack of benefits.

                As for UAW-I don't feel sorry for them one bit, they made their bed now they have to lie in it. They have been told for years this would happen and they kept wanting more. I applaud the man who only missed four days of work, but I also know by UAW rules he could miss EIGHT DAYS OF WORK WITHOUT CALLING IN AND NOT BE FIRED!!! That is the kind of thing that is killing the auto industry.

                Farewell-go to the GM, Ford, Chrysler websites and look up the number of 25-30 MPG cars they have and then check Toyota, Suzuki, Honda. The numbers won't be very far off. While the big three went overboard with the huge SUV's (escalade, expedition, suburban etc,) the foreign companies ALSO started making them as well, they simply stopped at what would be called mid-sized SUV's which still got horrible MPG.
                A Veteran is someone who at one point in their life wrote a blank check made payable to The United States of America, for an amount up to, and including their life. That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today, who no longer understand that fact!

                Comment


                • #9
                  [QUOTE=Stormy;1343055]
                  Originally posted by crimijuswoman View Post


                  I made a post that retired UAW workers make 95% in retirement pay. How much of that is true?

                  I know it is not 95%, or else he wouldn't be working part time. My mom is diabetic and some things his heath benefits don't pay. I would say that he may recieve around 60% and that is only a guess. I do agree though that alot of the older auto companies, ie, GM and Ford are closing due in part to the UAW. Often employees complain of the pettiest things and the company is often forced to spend a ton of money just to please them. I am not slamming all unions by any means, some companies that treat their employees like crap, need them. Just my opinion.
                  "Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be.But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior’s path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.-On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs
                  (From the book, On Combat, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ray8285 View Post
                    It's not the employer who caused the biggest problem with the big three. UAW is one of the biggest casues for their $$$ problems. The big pay, outlandish benefits have finally put them on the verge of going out of business.

                    As far as fuel efficiency, one of the US auto makers has more models with 30+ MPG than any other company. It's not that they don't make them, WE didn't buy enough of them because WE wanted big V-8's with 18 MPG.
                    I can't believe you said that !!! read your history books sometimes about the Labor movement in this country- employees used to get maimed ,abused and overworked by companies UNTIL the rise of unions ! the UAW has only done to mgm't what mgm't STILL does to the workers.FUNNY that the Japanese autop companies GIVE A DAMN about their workers health and welfare and the major DEMCORATIC car manufacturers don't- visit flint,Mi or detroit sometimes,where the BIG 3 made damn sure the towns were dependent on them to exist- you'll sing a different tune................
                    "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I drive a quad cab Toyota Tundra 2004. Before that I drove a 2004 Ford Explorer Sport Trac. I love my Tundra .
                      -I don't feel you honor someone by creating a physical gesture (the salute). You honor them by holding them in memory and, in law enforcement, proceeding in vigilant, ethical police work. You honor this country or deceased soldiers or whatever you're honoring when you salute a flag by thinking, feeling, and continuing a life of freedom.

                      --ArkansasRed24

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by farewelltonavy
                        Well I am a firm believer that anyone who works their whole life for a company, deserves as many benefits as they can get.
                        But they can't get the benefits because the ir benefits and work rules helped drive the company out of business.
                        Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                        Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DOAcop38 View Post
                          Sad- the nation that gave the world automobiles.
                          Huh? "Although several other German engineers (including Gottlieb Daimler, Wilhelm Maybach, and Siegfried Marcus) were working on the problem at about the same time, Karl Benz generally is acknowledged as the inventor of the modern automobile." -- Wikipedia
                          Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                          Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DOAcop38 View Post
                            I can't believe you said that !!! read your history books sometimes about the Labor movement in this country- employees used to get maimed ,abused and overworked by companies UNTIL the rise of unions ! the UAW has only done to mgm't what mgm't STILL does to the workers.FUNNY that the Japanese autop companies GIVE A DAMN about their workers health and welfare and the major DEMCORATIC car manufacturers don't- visit flint,Mi or detroit sometimes,where the BIG 3 made damn sure the towns were dependent on them to exist- you'll sing a different tune................
                            What do your history books tell you about Henry Ford? I don't believe unions would've done a better job of protecting their members than Henry did protecting his employees. Henry paid the best wages, bar none, of any employer. But unions muscled their way into the shop; like 'em or not, they were going to stay. That's gangsters for you.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by farewelltonavy View Post
                              Well I am a firm believer that anyone who works their whole life for a company, deserves as many benefits as they can get.
                              Originally posted by DAL View Post
                              But they can't get the benefits because the ir benefits and work rules helped drive the company out of business.
                              Farewell, does your statement pertain to the Social Security system as well?

                              And, DAL, does your statement pertain to the government raiding the SS funds and leaving the workers that contributed into the system, hanging out to dry? The US gov is, after all a non-profit corporation.

                              Comment

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