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  • #46
    That is until there is a high-risk criminal/terrorist incident and a civilian on the way to the range pulls out an M4 and assists...

    Tinker - with all due respect, you are paranoid. If you were dead and in heaven, folks should still have the right to carry a good old 1911 and an M4... why? Because there is no criminal intent (and I feel gun-owners tend to be more patriotic to begin with) but it is a symbol of freedom. Freedom of choice and freedom to exercise that responsibility that comes with it.

    If you lost your job tomorrow, would you hand in your firearms or sell them? Would you give up your God-given right (not dependant on any Constitution IMHO) to the means to self-preservation of yourself, your family and the general public/society as a whole...???

    If you were "just a civilian" tomorrow and suspects were breaking into your home to do you harm (or rape your wife), would you now want to limit your defence options to just OC pepper-spray or a civilian TASER...??? What would YOU do...???

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Tinkertoys
      I just don't like people having a M-16 or a M249

      -tink


      I don't like Glocks....lets ban those too
      An impressionable child in a tumultuous world, and they say I'm at a difficult stage... --Meat Loaf

      Professional Stupidity Recognition Technician

      Comment


      • #48
        For the looks of it I guess this is a gun/anti gun thread. Well like them or not, our constitution allows them. I am not a person that owns guns or really likes being around them but that doesn't mean I would stop someone who does from having them. You can ban whatever you want, guns, drugs, etc but when the bad guys want something, they get it. Laws only work for those that tend to respect them and obey them. I think most states have enough laws in place to make sure new gun owners get some training so they don't shoot their foot off. But most people who consider owning guns (not the criminals) will ask questions and learn how to use one. I made a post on here asking about gun laws and have visited good sites provided from here to learn before I decide if I really want to own one. My decision to own is my choice, is why I live in this country to begin with.

        As for the "law abiding citizen" owning automatic weapons? Somehow I doubt the average Joe owns such things. I suspect avid gun owners/collectors might or those folks in fields that just enjoy guns. But those are not the folks that are going to take out your local McDonalds on lunch hour. The people who shoot up a place etc are typically nuts or criminals that can bypass about any law out there. Frankly I think some teenagers should be banned from having cars!!!!

        Comment


        • #49
          So you are going to ban guns for the avrage citizen. Someone who does not comit part 1 or part 2 crimes. Meanwhile their are tons of people who are consistent offenders running wild armed and dangerous leaving non-offenders helpless.


          I don't like pencils... lets ban them too
          "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use."
          -Achille Marozzo, 1536

          Ne Obliviscaris - Do Not Forget

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Mem
            For the looks of it I guess this is a gun/anti gun thread. Well like them or not, our constitution allows them. I am not a person that owns guns or really likes being around them but that doesn't mean I would stop someone who does from having them. You can ban whatever you want, guns, drugs, etc but when the bad guys want something, they get it. Laws only work for those that tend to respect them and obey them. I think most states have enough laws in place to make sure new gun owners get some training so they don't shoot their foot off. But most people who consider owning guns (not the criminals) will ask questions and learn how to use one. I made a post on here asking about gun laws and have visited good sites provided from here to learn before I decide if I really want to own one. My decision to own is my choice, is why I live in this country to begin with.

            As for the "law abiding citizen" owning automatic weapons? Somehow I doubt the average Joe owns such things. I suspect avid gun owners/collectors might or those folks in fields that just enjoy guns. But those are not the folks that are going to take out your local McDonalds on lunch hour. The people who shoot up a place etc are typically nuts or criminals that can bypass about any law out there. Frankly I think some teenagers should be banned from having cars!!!!


            This argument sounds a might familiar....lets see....

            "If guns were outlawed...only outlaws would have guns!"


            Yup...knew I heard that thread of common sense somewhere before!




            OH...and those little sissy looking cars who cut you off at the off-ramps...lets ban those while we are at it.
            An impressionable child in a tumultuous world, and they say I'm at a difficult stage... --Meat Loaf

            Professional Stupidity Recognition Technician

            Comment


            • #51
              Taken from Gunowners.org

              A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

              * Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2

              * Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.3

              * As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.4

              * Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.5

              * Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).6 And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."7

              * Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.8 Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."

              B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

              * Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.9

              * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

              * States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;10 and

              * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.11

              * Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."12

              * Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.13 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. 14

              * Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

              1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

              2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport.15

              C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

              * Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.16

              * Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.17

              * Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

              * Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,

              * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.18

              Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

              * Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.19

              * Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.20

              Justice Department study:

              * 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."21

              * 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."22

              * 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."23
              "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use."
              -Achille Marozzo, 1536

              Ne Obliviscaris - Do Not Forget

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Bluntforcetraum
                Taken from Gunowners.org

                A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

                * Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2

                * Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.3

                * As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.4

                * Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.5

                * Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).6 And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."7

                * Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.8 Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."

                B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

                * Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.9

                * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

                * States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;10 and

                * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.11

                * Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."12

                * Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.13 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. 14

                * Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

                1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

                2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport.15

                C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

                * Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.16

                * Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.17

                * Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

                * Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,

                * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.18

                Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

                * Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.19

                * Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.20

                Justice Department study:

                * 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."21

                * 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."22

                * 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."23
                All from GAry Kleck I assume? Because the FBI disagrees. And does that usage include pulling the gun or just firing it?

                -tink

                -tink

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Tinkertoys
                  All from GAry Kleck I assume? Because the FBI disagrees. And does that usage include pulling the gun or just firing it?

                  -tink

                  -tink
                  * Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.3
                  Doesn't seem that you read very far into the list... =)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    People in Vermont generally get along better than people in other states, there are very few gangs in Vermont, and finally, when has Vermont EVER been known for its violent crime?

                    -tink

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Technically, you would not be using a gun when not firing it, inasmuch as one would not being using a car if not driving it. So how many incidents actually involved a gun being 'used'?

                      -tink

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        If we have so many Law Abiding Citizens running around the Country.Explain this to me,Why are cash trapped counties throughout the Southland having to pay for higher vehicle registration's and raise Property taxes to pay for TEN MILLION $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Glammer Slammers and float a 30 yr Bond to pay for it!Hey if you are tired of that saying from others {Iam a Law Abiding Citizen} cause all we get are LawBreakers. Send them down here to help us pay to incarcerate our Law Breakers.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Tinkertoys
                          Technically, you would not be using a gun when not firing it, inasmuch as one would not being using a car if not driving it. So how many incidents actually involved a gun being 'used'?

                          -tink

                          You get an attractive 22 year old female walking home from work at 2:30am just after the bar closes. She lives close so she walks or doesn't own a car. A drunk male obiously bigger than her approches and trys to rape her.

                          1. She is unarmed. The chances of her getting raped are huge.

                          2. She is armed. Draws the weapon and slowly backs off. At this point the male could
                          A. Keep coming and end up getting shot because the female was in fear of her life. She nutralized the threat.
                          B. Walk away. Also nutralizing the threat.

                          Guns do not have to be used in every situation by shooting someone. They can be very good graphic aids.
                          "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use."
                          -Achille Marozzo, 1536

                          Ne Obliviscaris - Do Not Forget

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            An impressionable child in a tumultuous world, and they say I'm at a difficult stage... --Meat Loaf

                            Professional Stupidity Recognition Technician

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Tinkertoys
                              Technically, you would not be using a gun when not firing it, inasmuch as one would not being using a car if not driving it. So how many incidents actually involved a gun being 'used'?

                              -tink
                              Actually, displaying a firearm as a deterrent is a very good use of a firearm. Why do you think bad guys always tell cops that "if you didn't have a gun, I'd .......?"
                              Jerry
                              "If all else fails, stop using all else!"

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Take this: More assaults are fought off with baseball bats, knives, clubs, etc. than guns.

                                -tink

                                Comment

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