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  • Israel an ally?

    I read this article online a while ago and it begged the question: do you think Isreal is a big ally of the U.S? Why/why not?

  • #2
    Originally posted by savage4presiden
    I read this article online a while ago and it begged the question: do you think Isreal is a big ally of the U.S? Why/why not?

    Only when it's in their best interest
    Trooperden, akman75, & azmichelle ignored

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by savage4presiden
      I read this article online a while ago and it begged the question: do you think Isreal is a big ally of the U.S? Why/why not?
      Since Israel is surrounded by countries that do not believe they have a right to the land they currently occupy they will ally themselves with countries that will either guarantee them direct support (i.e. arms sales and cash) or indirect support (i.e. arms research). In my opinion our alliance with Israel exisits only because it is mutually beneficial. Israel needs the US because of the money and arms the US provides and the US needs Israel because they are the only country we can always rely upon in the Middle East. It is not a relationship built on trust, such as the relationship between the US and the UK. It is a relationship built on necessity. If Israel looses the support of the United States they will cease to exist and if the US looses the support of Israel we lose our only reliable foothold in the area.

      Just my opinion.
      No man is justified in doing evil on the grounds of expediency. - Theodore Roosevelt, The Strenuous Life: Essays and Addresses (1900)

      Comment


      • #4
        I believe it was Churchill who said that countires do not have friends, only interests.
        Disclaimer: The writer does not represent any organization, employer, entity or other individual. The first amendment protected views/commentary/opinions/satire expressed are those only of the writer. In the case of a sarcastic, facetious, nonsensical, stirring-the-pot, controversial or devil's advocate-type post, the views expressed may not even reflect those of the writer.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mosetti
          Since Israel is surrounded by countries that do not believe they have a right to the land they currently occupy they will ally themselves with countries that will either guarantee them direct support (i.e. arms sales and cash) or indirect support (i.e. arms research). In my opinion our alliance with Israel exisits only because it is mutually beneficial. Israel needs the US because of the money and arms the US provides and the US needs Israel because they are the only country we can always rely upon in the Middle East. It is not a relationship built on trust, such as the relationship between the US and the UK. It is a relationship built on necessity. If Israel looses the support of the United States they will cease to exist and if the US looses the support of Israel we lose our only reliable foothold in the area.

          Just my opinion.
          We would still have Turkey.

          Comment


          • #6
            Absolutely not.

            - Did they go to war with us into Afghanistan/Iraq?

            - Do they let us use their airbases for our actions in the Middle East? Even after Turkey and Saudi Arabia said no?

            - Who is Jonathan Pollard? Why do they spy on us?

            - Who attempted to sink the U.S.S. Liberty?

            Allies work together, not in their own self-serving interests.

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            • #7
              Absolutely not.

              Did they go to war with us into Afghanistan/Iraq?

              That really is an ignorant question/statement. The moment Israel enters into a public and all out attack in conjunction with/on behalf of the US would be the end of the administration in Washington and third world war in the Middle East. In no way does it make sense that

              - Do they let us use their airbases for our actions in the Middle East? Even after Turkey and Saudi Arabia said no?
              Check your facts. It's well known open secret that there is an active US military base in Israel. I can source this if you wish.

              - Who is Jonathan Pollard? Why do they spy on us?
              All allied countries, including the US, spy on each other. It's what they do with the information that counts. Jonathan Pollard was also a wannabe and he needs to remain firmly where he is.

              - Who attempted to sink the U.S.S. Liberty?
              This is a disputed case, and a one-off incident. Can you name one more incident involving Israel and the US where an act of aggression was carried out. Let me know and before you do check out www.libertyincident.org

              Allies work together, not in their own self-serving interests.
              That would be why 75% of the funding that is given to Israel is handed back to the US for defense weapons and equipment.

              And for someone who calls themselves Savage for President, would know from Michael Savage himself that Israel, under immense pressure from the US and opinion from certain countries, has sold itself and its previous anti-terrorist strategies to be PC? Why focus on those who aim to harm us rather than those in a similar situation to the dire straits we find ourselves in.
              Never, Never, Never Give Up!
              Sir Winston Churchill

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ZalmanEmmes
                This is a disputed case, and a one-off incident. Can you name one more incident involving Israel and the US where an act of aggression was carried out. Let me know and before you do check out www.libertyincident.org


                Zalman,

                I often nod my head in agreement with your posts but with all due respect I've personally corresponded with USS Liberty surivivors who witnessed the Israeli jet attack. I'll take their word over any self professed academics or government officials. I'll grant you that this attack was an aberration of sorts but that does not negate the fact that it was a deliberate and cowardly attack that killed Americans.

                As far as the Pollard situation I'll admit that I'm no expert on all things espionage. What irks me is that Israel is constantly browbeating for the US to release this traitor from prison. IMO that just rubs salt in the wound.

                We have an interest in Israel and they are an ally to a point. Dare I say they view us the same way.
                Disclaimer: The writer does not represent any organization, employer, entity or other individual. The first amendment protected views/commentary/opinions/satire expressed are those only of the writer. In the case of a sarcastic, facetious, nonsensical, stirring-the-pot, controversial or devil's advocate-type post, the views expressed may not even reflect those of the writer.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Zalman,

                  You have every right to call me ignorant, even though you're the one who doesn't appear to be versed on the difference between an ally and an economic partner. Note that the two are not mutually exclusive.

                  For example:
                  England is both an ally and an economic partner.
                  China is an economic partner but not an ally.
                  ROK is both an ally and an economic partner.
                  France is an economic partner but not an ally.
                  Australia is both an ally and economic partner.
                  India is an economic partner but not an ally.
                  Japan is both an ally and economic partner.
                  Russia is an economic partner but not an ally.

                  The term ally implies doing battle together. I don't see Israel fighting in the war on terror with the U.S./Britain in Afghanistan or Iraq. Only within the Israeli border, it would appear.

                  Talk is cheap, action speaks volumes. So far Israeli (in)action has spoken volumes.

                  By the way, U.S.S. Liberty was in fact flying a U.S. flag at the time of the attack.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stonie
                    Zalman,

                    You have every right to call me ignorant, even though you're the one who doesn't appear to be versed on the difference between an ally and an economic partner. Note that the two are not mutually exclusive.

                    For example:
                    England is both an ally and an economic partner.
                    China is an economic partner but not an ally.
                    ROK is both an ally and an economic partner.
                    France is an economic partner but not an ally.
                    Australia is both an ally and economic partner.
                    India is an economic partner but not an ally.
                    Japan is both an ally and economic partner.
                    Russia is an economic partner but not an ally.

                    The term ally implies doing battle together. I don't see Israel fighting in the war on terror with the U.S./Britain in Afghanistan or Iraq. Only within the Israeli border, it would appear.

                    Talk is cheap, action speaks volumes. So far Israeli (in)action has spoken volumes.

                    By the way, U.S.S. Liberty was in fact flying a U.S. flag at the time of the attack.
                    In the 1991 Gulf War Saddam Hussein realized that he was facing overwhelming military forces that he had no hope in defeating. In an attempt to get the other Arabian countries to stop support the US he tried to bait Israel into the war by firing missles at them. On the request of the US, Israel remained out of the conflict to help maintain the Coalition. Putting the safety of your country in the hands of another is the ultimate act of an ally. Israel would have sent troops to Iraq and Afgahistan, but why would we want to further complicate a matter like that?

                    As I said earlier, Israel and the US are allies because it is mutually beneficial. I do not believe that Zalman mentioned anything about economic partnerships, which you are correct in saying are not mutually exclusive.

                    Mrkoje,

                    Turkey is our ally because they are forced to be. Turkey gives us the use of some bases in thier country because we helped them get into NATO (and detered the Soviet Union from invading them during the Cold War) and we are now supporting thier bid to join the European Union. If they forced us out do you think we would still support them?
                    No man is justified in doing evil on the grounds of expediency. - Theodore Roosevelt, The Strenuous Life: Essays and Addresses (1900)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mosetti
                      In the 1991 Gulf War Saddam Hussein realized that he was facing overwhelming military forces that he had no hope in defeating. In an attempt to get the other Arabian countries to stop support the US he tried to bait Israel into the war by firing missles at them. On the request of the US, Israel remained out of the conflict to help maintain the Coalition. Putting the safety of your country in the hands of another is the ultimate act of an ally. Israel would have sent troops to Iraq and Afgahistan, but why would we want to further complicate a matter like that?

                      As I said earlier, Israel and the US are allies because it is mutually beneficial. I do not believe that Zalman mentioned anything about economic partnerships, which you are correct in saying are not mutually exclusive.
                      I didn't mention the Gulf War for a reason, but you do have a very good point in that instance.

                      I'm just dissapointed with Israeli inaction in the current WoT, because I know when/if they decide to strike, they go for the jugular.

                      IE: Osiraq II, Entebbe, etc.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Stonie
                        I'm just dissapointed with Israeli inaction in the current WoT, because I know when/if they decide to strike, they go for the jugular.

                        You are right. When Israel go for something they go hard, but the reason they do not do more in the GWoT is purely politcal. Firstly, we do not want the GWoT to be percieved as a war on Islam which is exactly what would have should Israel become activley involved. Secondly, many Islamic countries that currently support the GWoT would immediately withdraw thier support if Israel were to become more active (i.e. Pakistan). Lastly, Israel has a huge problem with Palestinian Terror groups, as you no doubt know, which occupies a large amount of thier time and resources. I think you would agree that a government has a responsibility to eliminate terror in thier own country before looking outwards.
                        No man is justified in doing evil on the grounds of expediency. - Theodore Roosevelt, The Strenuous Life: Essays and Addresses (1900)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As far as the Pollard situation I'll admit that I'm no expert on all things espionage. What irks me is that Israel is constantly browbeating for the US to release this traitor from prison. IMO that just rubs salt in the wound.

                          We have an interest in Israel and they are an ally to a point. Dare I say they view us the same way.
                          Bricktop....I do agree with you about the Liberty incident. It's definitely unusual as in no other way, in speech, deed or action has Israel shown any dislike or disregard for the United States. They may not agree with all the policies, but they are a staunch ally in a quagmire of scum that surrounds them.

                          Israel is a democratic nation, the only one in the Middle East. It's extremely westernised and has become so soft minded regarding terror, that they are currently in negotiation to give away land for peace while the Palestinan authority get themselves ready for another bout of terror attacks.

                          If the pressure placed on Israel was as strong as that on terror sponsoring nations such as Syria and Saudi Arabia, the lie of the land would be quite different.


                          Zalman,

                          You have every right to call me ignorant, even though you're the one who doesn't appear to be versed on the difference between an ally and an economic partner. Note that the two are not mutually exclusive.

                          For example:
                          England is both an ally and an economic partner.
                          China is an economic partner but not an ally.
                          ROK is both an ally and an economic partner.
                          France is an economic partner but not an ally.
                          Australia is both an ally and economic partner.
                          India is an economic partner but not an ally.
                          Japan is both an ally and economic partner.
                          Russia is an economic partner but not an ally.

                          The term ally implies doing battle together. I don't see Israel fighting in the war on terror with the U.S./Britain in Afghanistan or Iraq. Only within the Israeli border, it would appear.

                          Talk is cheap, action speaks volumes. So far Israeli (in)action has spoken volumes.

                          By the way, U.S.S. Liberty was in fact flying a U.S. flag at the time of the attack.
                          I'm referring to your specific statement, not your person as being ignorant. You say talk is cheap but are you aware that the Israeli Shabak (FBI) and Mossad consult with, train and guide United States Military, Federal, state and local personnel in anti-terror training and exercises?

                          Are you also aware of the backlash from the arab world, the UN and the lefties if Israel were to be seen acting in public unison with the United States.

                          Israel is a nation of almost 6 million people, in an area the size of the State of New Jersey surrounded and infiltrated by those who wish to destroy it.

                          There is no war on terror in Iraq or Afghanistan and it certainly isn't the way that Israelis do business. The current military presence in Iraq is a police force while the Iraqis get trained and prepared for American withdrawal. There is no agressive or overt military war tactics or operations being carried out.

                          In the event that there was an actual war, where our forces are allowed to do their job and eliminate the enemy and not be held back by a bunch of pen pushing regulations that risk their lives, then the Israelis can get involved.

                          I am perturbed by your perception of a lack of willingness by the Israelis to assist the Americans or to deal with terror in general. And just because you don't see what's going on in the media, doesn't mean stuff isnt happening.

                          Check out www.debka.com for some insights.

                          Be Well,
                          Never, Never, Never Give Up!
                          Sir Winston Churchill

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