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  • eyesopen
    replied
    Manufacturing output in this country has been going up, not down, for decades due to higher productivity, higher tech manufacturing, etc. The average US built car takes less workers to assemble now than it did 30 years ago due to higher tech manufacturing, for instance. We produce more cars than 30-40 years ago, with far less people yet they last much longer and are much more reliable. Lower tech manufacturing which has a much higher labor overhead and a much lower overall skills basis is what's been going overseas. Even sectors which people commonly believe have disappeared have actually grown in this country, such as textile manufacturing, due to higher tech manufacturing. Personally, I believe its better to have a higher tech, more efficient manufacturing base which can produce more goods with less people than a base which produces the same amount or less goods with more people.

    Some point to the strategic, national defense argument of the manufacturing base here. Well, the same thing applies.... we can produce more and far better defensive/offensive products faster, with less people, now than ever before, freeing up more of the workforce for other things. Look at how many dollars have been spent for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.... yet the average American hardly sees an impact on their daily lives - we do more with less troops, and less impact on manufacturing here in the USA because we don't engage in a numbers war. In WWII a small fraction of all the bombs we dropped actually hit their targets. Most ended up doing collateral damage to civilian and/or non-effective targets. Now, instead of squadrons of bombers dropping hundreds of bombs we can put a single missile into the window of an intended target. Economic impacts aside (how many people who would be tide up in the war if we were low tech), the human toll on both our troops and civilians is far lower.

    Given the choice, I'd rather see the durable goods aircraft, semiconductor, electronics, medical equipment, autos, etc. produced here with our more efficient work force than low end toys, bicycles, plastic boxes and shelves and the other low tech throw away crap that China is making. America, by and large, is one of the most productive manufacturing countries in the world when you compare the number of employees producing the goods to the total output of goods. Americans say they want low tech jobs when it comes to the bigger picture and other people, but I think most on a personal basis would rather not work on a mindless, boring assembly line - if they have to work on an assembly line they'd prefer higher paying assembly work which takes some skills.

    I believe there's a fallacy that we "lose" jobs... the employment marketplace isn't static - jobs "shift". In the 1800s when the industrial revolution was beginning there were many in the press and economics who said it would be the end of the end of jobs, stability, etc. The same was said during the automotive revolution of the early 1900s. What we are going through is no different in many regards... we continually become more higher tech, more efficient, more productive and replace jobs with better jobs. If we truly "lost" all the jobs over the past 30 years that each year someone publishes numbers for no one would be employed. Of course a recession is an anomaly to this pattern, but there have been other recessions in the past and the employment picture came out okay in the long run.

    The key difference between now and other times of a shift in America's employment base is the huge growth in government, and the shift in how government workers are paid and the benefits given. Look at unionization in the public sector for example. As the manufacturing jobs base in this country shrunk due to increases in productivity and efficiency the unions saw their power base disappear.... government became their target and they've been quite successful. Union leaders are naturally afraid of their loss of power and money... unions which cannot shift towards government employees such as the UAW are ramping up efforts to unionize workers overseas. I don't think its because they give a rip about the workers and "American jobs" but rather care more for keeping their gravy train rolling.

    Nobel Laureate Paul A. Samuelson summed it up well: "The whole history of unionism has been . . . in determining how industries in decline are accelerated toward their extinction."


    Does this include the full time private contractors who own their own businesses but their primary customer is Wal Mart?

    Just asking. I know of many who have a Wal Mart division dedicated to travel and contract with them.
    Doesn't apply unless you also include the countless private contractors who own their own business buy their primary customer is the government.
    Last edited by eyesopen; 04-04-2011, 10:01 AM.

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  • zeplin
    replied
    I understand that Catapilar is leaving the 'Great state of Illinois' because of the hellaious tax increase on them.

    Leave a comment:


  • OneAdam12
    replied
    Originally Posted by hopperja
    As of January 2009, there were 2,748,978 federal employees. Walmart reported in 2009 they had 2.1 million employees worldwide. So, DAL, you're right: less work for Walmart than the federal government.
    Does this include the full time private contractors who own their own businesses but their primary customer is Wal Mart?

    Just asking. I know of many who have a Wal Mart division dedicated to travel and contract with them.

    Leave a comment:


  • JasperST
    replied
    Originally posted by hopperja View Post
    As of January 2009, there were 2,748,978 federal employees. Walmart reported in 2009 they had 2.1 million employees worldwide. So, DAL, you're right: less work for Walmart than the federal government.
    It's also a comparison of nation numbers and international numbers, which makes no sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • hopperja
    replied
    Originally posted by MD11pilot View Post
    Another reason for loss of manufacturing jobs is that that today's culture portrays you to be a loser if you don't graduate from a University and get a nice paying white collared job. Blue collared jobs make white collared life possible.
    Where I've been, this has not been the case. Manufacturing doesn't leave due to a shortage of blue collar workers. Manufacturing leaves and mostly the workers beg them to stay. Many will even move to a new part of the country to keep their blue collar job (if the company moves domestically). I'll concede that there's a lot more pressure to go to college, but I doubt it creates labor shortages in manufacturing.

    Manufacturing jobs generally leave due to costs. It's expensive to pay the wages and benefits package, the overhead of the infrastructure (buildings, land, etc), and import the ever more foreign material sources. A converse example of this is when Nissan started building trucks in the United States. They did this because every truck imported from Japan had a $5,000 tax (this is what I've heard, though I can't find anything online to substantiate it). Nissan couldn't make trucks that competed with the S10, Ranger, or any other domestically made truck that would sell at a competitive price. They brought truck manufacturing to Smyrna, TN to save costs, thus becoming more competitive.

    As of January 2009, there were 2,748,978 federal employees. Walmart reported in 2009 they had 2.1 million employees worldwide. So, DAL, you're right: less work for Walmart than the federal government.

    Leave a comment:


  • MD11pilot
    replied
    Originally posted by Southflaguy View Post
    Entrepreneurship, international business, and IT seems to be the way of the future...
    Another reason for loss of manufacturing jobs is that that today's culture portrays you to be a loser if you don't graduate from a University and get a nice paying white collared job. Blue collared jobs make white collared life possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • OneAdam12
    replied



    Just to prove the point being made.



    I kinda agree with one lady about spending overseas vs here.

    Leave a comment:


  • needguidance
    replied
    Originally posted by hobbsie711 View Post
    Unions and taxes asside. Manufacturing jobs aren't going to return to the US anytime soon. Even if the unions and taxes went away I don't think the jobs would come back. Technology and the standard of living in the US today would prevent companies from paying a wage that they would be willing to work for. If Americans want jobs they need to educate themselves. The mid to upper management jobs, trade jobs (like cable, or linemen), or gov't jobs are going to be all that are left. Thats just the way it's going to be but we are going to hit a tipping point before too long. Regardless of how they got to the place their at, there are millions in this country that have no desire to do anything other than draw a gov't check, buy groceries with food stamps, and live in section 8 housing. The system needs serious overhaul. The safety net has become a hammock that too many people are comfortable just lying in. Eventually the weight of it is going to get too heavy for us to support.
    I agree! There should be workfare and learnfare not welfare. You get money to support for a short time while you learn a trade or get some type of schooling for a list of positions that need to be filled in that area. Then you work. If you have kids and you live in an apartment, your income taxes will include school tax for those children. The amount of schooling or training you get will be a reflection of the number of children meaning if you were stupid enough to have 4 kids and you can only afford your fat lazy self then it may take a couple of years to train for a position that earns a salary to pay for all those mouths. If you choose not to go, your kids are taken away and you are brought up on charges for child neglect and endangerment. The kids go to families that can support them and you are now only one person we have to worry about.

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL
    replied
    Originally posted by TheKansan View Post
    More people work for wal-mart than work for the federal government.
    A total fabrication, unfortunately.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheKansan
    replied
    More people work for wal-mart than work for the federal government.

    Leave a comment:


  • Southflaguy
    replied
    Entrepreneurship, international business, and IT seems to be the way of the future...

    Leave a comment:


  • hobbsie711
    replied
    Unions and taxes asside. Manufacturing jobs aren't going to return to the US anytime soon. Even if the unions and taxes went away I don't think the jobs would come back. Technology and the standard of living in the US today would prevent companies from paying a wage that they would be willing to work for. If Americans want jobs they need to educate themselves. The mid to upper management jobs, trade jobs (like cable, or linemen), or gov't jobs are going to be all that are left. Thats just the way it's going to be but we are going to hit a tipping point before too long. Regardless of how they got to the place their at, there are millions in this country that have no desire to do anything other than draw a gov't check, buy groceries with food stamps, and live in section 8 housing. The system needs serious overhaul. The safety net has become a hammock that too many people are comfortable just lying in. Eventually the weight of it is going to get too heavy for us to support.

    Leave a comment:


  • needguidance
    replied
    Originally posted by DAL View Post
    Technology -- especially inexpensive telecommunications -- has facilitated the movement of information intensive jobs overseas or to less expensive parts of the US.

    There are still plenty of jobs here for bright, creative people. And there are plenty of jobs for janitors, farm workers, house cleaners, gardeners, etc. Americans don't want those jobs.
    Yes, and I saw Obama over in India promoting that fact.

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL
    replied
    Technology -- especially inexpensive telecommunications -- has facilitated the movement of information intensive jobs overseas or to less expensive parts of the US.

    There are still plenty of jobs here for bright, creative people. And there are plenty of jobs for janitors, farm workers, house cleaners, gardeners, etc. Americans don't want those jobs.
    Last edited by DAL; 04-02-2011, 09:49 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • avalon42
    replied
    post deleted
    Last edited by avalon42; 03-13-2015, 05:59 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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