The Philadelphia Subway Incident

[officerdotcomm]

In case you haven't seen it...

A man WITH HIS SIX YEAR OLD SON IN TOW ramdomly attacked a passenger on the Philadelphia subway on Tuesday 9/9. The incident was captured by a security camera. Reportedly there were TEN other passengers on the subway car, NONE of whom did anything to assist the victim until AFTER the attacker had gotten off the subway. The attack was committed with a typical claw hammer (admittedly a formidable weapon).

Observations have been made that TEN other people could have over-powered the bad guy to save the victim (who survived with several staples in his scalp, some stitches in his heck and a few broken fingers). After the bad guy got off the subway a female helped the victim off the subway car and another rider pulled the emergency handle to alert the driver of the subway train to the problem.

My wife's observation was, "I don't think I could just stand there and do nothing."

My comment was, "Out of those ten people, no one was more than a sheep? Not one of them was armed?"

And my wife's return question: "If they were could they have legally shot the man?"

As a veteran police officer I know that answer. However, the concerns my wife listed included:

1) What would the local police think?
2) What would the local prosecutor think?
3) How would the media react to a white woman shooting a black man armed with nothing more than a hammer?
4) If the BG died, would his family sue her?
5) If the BG lived, would he sue her?
6) What would the total end cost be financially for having potentially saved the life of a total stranger?

I wanted to post this for conversational purposes.

Your thoughts?

[Hoosier_Boy]

In case you haven't seen it...

A man WITH HIS SIX YEAR OLD SON IN TOW ramdomly attacked a passenger on the Philadelphia subway on Tuesday 9/9. The incident was captured by a security camera. Reportedly there were TEN other passengers on the subway car, NONE of whom did anything to assist the victim until AFTER the attacker had gotten off the subway. The attack was committed with a typical claw hammer (admittedly a formidable weapon).

Observations have been made that TEN other people could have over-powered the bad guy to save the victim (who survived with several staples in his scalp, some stitches in his heck and a few broken fingers). After the bad guy got off the subway a female helped the victim off the subway car and another rider pulled the emergency handle to alert the driver of the subway train to the problem.

My wife's observation was, "I don't think I could just stand there and do nothing."

My comment was, "Out of those ten people, no one was more than a sheep? Not one of them was armed?"

And my wife's return question: "If they were could they have legally shot the man?"

As a veteran police officer I know that answer. However, the concerns my wife listed included:

1) What would the local police think?

They should think that she acted in the best interest of society.

2) What would the local prosecutor think?

See above.

3) How would the media react to a white woman shooting a black man armed with nothing more than a hammer?

Kind of like a knife to a gunfight type deal. He could kill someone with a hammer as easy as a gun.

4) If the BG died, would his family sue her?

Probably. Would they win, probably not.

5) If the BG lived, would he sue her?

Probably. See above.

6) What would the total end cost be financially for having potentially saved the life of a total stranger?

Frank you know it's about wording. It would be, "I thought after he attacked that man that I would be next. I did it to save myself.

I wanted to post this for conversational purposes.

Your thoughts?

My thoughts are this is a bad deal. And it is to dam bad that no one had a gun to put some warm metal in this bone heads chest.

[velobard]

Not sure about in Philly, but here in MO guns are banned from mass transit for anyone with a CCW. Now here's a big surprise, there have been recent articles in the news about attacks on the Metro trains and around the stations as passengers disembark. The thugs know they are gun-free environment. One recent attack on a family leaving a train involved about 20 youths.

As for shooting to defend a third party, I pondered that possibility in the recent thread about a woman who was beaten:

I pursued my ccw to protect myself and my loved ones, first and foremost. Obviously there are situations where I'd feel obligated to intervene, but I have no illusions that I'm a "defender of the public" just because I'm carrying. Lethal force is something I would never use lightly, but I would not hesitate to protect my own.

It becomes much more of a gray area once we start talking about a private citizen using lethal force to jump into a situation that doesn't involve me. FWIW, yes I believe I would have attempted to stop this situation, but at some point I have to draw the line and know that other citizens have their own right and responsibility to defend themselves. Yes, I would have immediately called 911. Yes, I would have done anything possible to distract this guy, or try to get the woman away from his when he turned his back. If he turned on me because I attracted his attention, I would have protected myself. Even then, I would be in questionable stead if I shot an unarmed man. It may seem perfectly reasonable at the time, but there's no telling what a jury will decide.

Recently I tried to start a thread about the Harold Fish case in Arizona.

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99008

It didn't catch anyone's attention enough to bite, but it serves as a frightening example of how what may seem at the time to be an obvious justification for the use of a gun at the time can lead to tragic (at least IMHO) consequences. In a nutshell, it involved a retired gentleman who, tired at the end of a 20 mile hike, found himself being charged my a ranting man threatening to kill him, after just being charged by the man's dogs. The hiker is now serving a 10 year sentence for second degree murder. The prosecutor had three grand juries "no bill" it before he got the result he wanted, but it eventually went to trial and now this guy's behind bars.

I realize you're also posing this question to LEOs who might be carrying off duty. For CCW permit holders, I've heard others say you might as well plan on spending a barrel full of $50's for legal expenses even for a justified shooting. Fortunately that's not always the case, but there's no guarantee it won't happen and there's no guarantee what a jury will decide if it goes to trial.

[Southflaguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p4np9zJNtQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBMRi_HK0Ok&NR=1

That's crazy, they could have tackled him to the floor...The bald guy sitting down could have taken the bad guy down, people are getting soft...Reminds me of the incident in Connecticut where the man got hit by a car and noone did a thing...

[Sully49]

Reminds me of the incident in Connecticut where the man got hit by a car and noone did a thing...

Thats the exact same incident I was thinking of, too, which happened in Hartford. I think the Hartford Chief of Police hit the nail on the head after that hit and run when he said "We have lost our moral compass" No one cares about anyone anymore. Look what happened to that kid on the greyhound bus who was beheaded. How do you sit there and watch someone get stabbed 40 times? I just can't get my head around it. I take the bus everyday into work and now I'm afraid to fall asleep on it, because god knows if someone starts stabbing me to death, chances are no one will lift a finger to try and stop me from being murdered!

[cbr600_kitty]

If you've gotta shoot someone, do it and just run or something.

You have GOT to be kidding......I don’t carry where I am not supposed to.... see that sign and I leave it in my car......I am going somewhere like the post office...... I leave it in the car......I know there's a chance that I wont have it when I need it, and I am taking that risk......but I try to minimize the risk by not frequenting businesses that have these signs (but there are only two businesses in the whole city that I am aware of that have NO GUN signs posted).

But I do know people that carry everywhere regardless of signage or the legality of it.....and they're still prepared to shoot someone in that business if need be......but if they did, I am confident that they would STAY there and hope the prosecutor would side with them.....

You have got to be kidding me that you would shoot someone and run away.....yeah, they’re not gonna find you and then not prosecute you to the fullest

[JTShooter]

Well, you stand there and take your punishment. Worse thing you can do is leave the scene. That makes you even more guilty in the eyes of the jury.


If you knowingly take your CCW into places you're not allowed, you're ready for the punishment. "Better be judged by 12 then carried by 6."


At least you're alive and the bad guy is dead. Plain and simple.

[velobard]

In some states it's a felony to carry in a posted location. That means if you're caught, for starters, you can never touch a gun again for life. Is it worth that?

Here in MO it's not a criminal charge if you're caught in a posted location, EXCEPT for buses. There's a separate law that makes that a felony. That law was pre-existing and when they wrote the ccw law they simply overlooked it. Metro, the outfit that runs the city buses around St Louis, has decided that law also applies to their public transit trains. No one wants to be the first one to challenge that claim. Guess where they're having trouble with increased crime? Right around the Metro train stations. Thugs know they have disarmed victims ready and waiting.

[JTShooter]

In FLA, the only places you'll face charges are listed in the law. All the other places (ie mall) are only enforced by the company in charge of the location.

Meaning if you get caught with a ccw in the mall, they'll just tresspass you.

[Mitchell_in_CT]

How about holstering, obeying the police officer's commands, then saying "Officer, my name is_____. I live at _____. I am requesting a lawyer and invoking my right to remain silent." then keeping your mouth closed until said lawyer arrives.


I mean...its just an Idea...

[Mitchell_in_CT]

Your thoughts?

As Philli is very un-gun-friendly, even to those carrying legally, I have little doubt that some of the people observing were armed and could have shot, but instead thought "I'm carrying to protect me and mine. I'm not stepping into it for any of you people who would string me up for saving someone's life if I did it by shooting the assailent."

[M-11]

I guess my only question about this is...

Can I carry a hammer anywhere I want to in Philly?

Might come in handy to know.

M-11

[Mitchell_in_CT]

Hammer?

Hammer nothing.

Get yourself one of these...

A 27oz Blackjack

[nr5667]

Ah, the city of brotherly love...

Gun? Geeze, there were 10 people, would it have been that amazingly difficult to grab and hold him while he's cocked back, about to make another swing?

And then the other nine can sit on him until the cops arrive.

[LAschoolCop]

Get an extendable baton.

Felony here in Cali