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  • Union Members vs Illegal Immigrants

    This would seem to present a dilemma for the Democrats

    Howard raid was result of union tip

    By EMMA JAMES
    American Staff Writer

    http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/a...EWS01/80825010
    August 25, 2008

    No arrests totals are available yet in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement raid of Howard Industries’ Laurel plant.

    Barbara Gonzalez, spokeswoman for ICE, said the raid was executed because of a tip f rom a Howard Industries union member.

    Employees are being interviewed, and if they are found in violation of U.S. immigration laws, they will be moved to a facility for processing, Gonzalez said.
    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

  • #2
    I guess it is no surprise, I am sure teh union members were tired of the company hiring illegals for substandard wages. There is one article abhout that raid where it said that several U.S. citizens were lined up to apply for jobs afterwards. Apparently the company as of late only wanted to hire illegals because they would accept low wages. I guess they really don't do the jobs that Americans are "unwilling" to do...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by BigPat View Post
      I guess they really don't do the jobs that Americans are "unwilling" to do...
      Only uneducated people believe that illegals aren't detrimental to the american workforce, especially the working class. I saw it myself as the company I used to work for hired illegals and layed off almost everyone else (including me).

      I don't stand with the unions on many issues, but on the issue of illegal immigration, I support them 100%.
      What is Perseverance?
      -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
      -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
      -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


      BOP - BPA - ICE

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TheKansan View Post
        Only uneducated people believe that illegals aren't detrimental to the american workforce, especially the working class. I saw it myself as the company I used to work for hired illegals and layed off almost everyone else (including me).

        I don't stand with the unions on many issues, but on the issue of illegal immigration, I support them 100%.
        I guess I must be uneducated, then, because I think there are some occupations where immigrant labor does not reduce American employment and helps keep prices more affordable. Without immigrant labor, growing fruits and vegetables in much of the West would not be sustainable. I recall hearing that half the crops in Colorado withered in the ground last year.

        To pay the much higher wages that Americans demand would put the farmers out of business. We would import more from Mexico and South America. Alternatively, farmers would turn to greater mechanization, eliminating jobs. Of course, I favor the return of the bracero program or something similar, so that bringing in seasonal farming labor would be legal.

        Even without illegal immigrants, many jobs have been eliminated as a result of mechanization. The outrageous wages demanded by longshoremen, coupled with high rates of theft, brought about containerization, because it requires less labor at the docks.

        Keeping prices down also benefits members of the working class. They can't afford to pay high prices.

        In Southern California, illegal immigrants and their children get hired in part because they work harder. According to NPR, the same is true in New Orleans.

        I believe that immigrants, illegal or otherwise, come here to work and do not have the sense of entitlement that many poor Americans have.
        Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
        Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DAL View Post
          I guess I must be uneducated, then, because I think there are some occupations where immigrant labor does not reduce American employment and helps keep prices more affordable. Without immigrant labor, growing fruits and vegetables in much of the West would not be sustainable. I recall hearing that half the crops in Colorado withered in the ground last year.
          First of all, don't try to confuse illegal immigrants with legal immigrants. Secondly you say "some", implying that you know that it is detrimental in other instances.

          To pay the much higher wages that Americans demand would put the farmers out of business. We would import more from Mexico and South America. Alternatively, farmers would turn to greater mechanization, eliminating jobs. Of course, I favor the return of the bracero program or something similar, so that bringing in seasonal farming labor would be legal.
          Greater mechanization is something I do not have a problem with, in fact that is what changed this country for the better following the industrial revolution.

          Even without illegal immigrants, many jobs have been eliminated as a result of mechanization. The outrageous wages demanded by longshoremen, coupled with high rates of theft, brought about containerization, because it requires less labor at the docks.

          Keeping prices down also benefits members of the working class. They can't afford to pay high prices.
          Now that is the weakest argument of them all. Have you ever asked yourself why the working class can't afford to pay higher prices? Perhaps it's because their employers don't pay fair wages due to cheap labor being available from illegal immigrants.

          In Southern California, illegal immigrants and their children get hired in part because they work harder. According to NPR, the same is true in New Orleans.

          I believe that immigrants, illegal or otherwise, come here to work and do not have the sense of entitlement that many poor Americans have.
          It's a stereotype that illegals work harder. I worked with illegals, and know that some of them were as lazy as anyone else. How many illegals have you worked with? Have you ever lost a job to an illegal immigrant? Or are you one of those people who pays illegals to keep has lawn mowed and house clean?
          What is Perseverance?
          -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
          -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
          -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


          BOP - BPA - ICE

          Comment


          • #6
            Unfortunately here in California and other states, what was once a trickle of illegal immigrants coming to work as farm laborers has turned into a flood, that displaced American workers in the trucking industry, housing construction and most of the service industry. Where kids were once found working their first jobs as dishwashers (I was one) or food servers, illegal aliens now predominate. Even government positions in trash collection, vehicle repair and custodial services are now "farmed" out to private sector contractors who use illegal aliens for the work done.

            What happens when these illegals decide to unionize (knowing they won't be deported anyway) and demand their "rights" to "living wages" (far beyond minimum wage)? It's already happening in our state! The "benefit" of allowing illegal alien labor to undercut American labor gave only an illusion of savings. Now taxpayers are paying for that savings through higher costs and more taxes to cover the unpaid benefits the employers and their workers pass on to us.
            "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

            Comment


            • #7
              For TheKansan:

              I have not worked with illegal immigrants (as far as I know), but I have seen plenty of gardeners in my neighborhood and laborers working on construction projects whom I suspect were illegal immigrants. They worked quite hard, on very hot days. My black neighbors employ them, and they do a good job.

              Apparently, you concede that not enough Americans are willing to weed the fields and pick crops. Why is mechanization superior to giving jobs to starving people? It also results in harvesting produce long before it is ripe, yielding lower quality.

              I don't support using illegal immigrants for anything. I support seasonal farm worker programs.

              Illegal aliens unionizing is ridiculous. They should be deported.

              Nearly all the advocates for illegal immigrants are Democrats, as are most union members. These groups clearly have conflicting interests. That will prevent Congress from passing any immigration reform legislation.
              Last edited by DAL; 08-29-2008, 10:34 AM.
              Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
              Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DAL View Post
                Why is mechanization superior to giving jobs to starving people? It also results in harvesting produce long before it is ripe, yielding lower quality.

                .
                Not trying to be an [email protected]@ but have you ever been to an extremely rural area? I grew up in one as did my wife (Missouri for me, sand hills of NE for her). Mechanization came about because you can do more work with less people, therefore, overall costs go down. This process started waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the 1800's. One of the first examples of a machine which would have ended something was the cotton gin. Had it come along earlier slavery may have ended sooner because the cotton gin could do the work of numerous slaves. Tractors replaced horses, seeders replaced people hand seeding. It's an ongoing process.
                A Veteran is someone who at one point in their life wrote a blank check made payable to The United States of America, for an amount up to, and including their life. That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today, who no longer understand that fact!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ray8285 View Post
                  Not trying to be an [email protected]@ but have you ever been to an extremely rural area? I grew up in one as did my wife (Missouri for me, sand hills of NE for her). Mechanization came about because you can do more work with less people, therefore, overall costs go down. This process started waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the 1800's. One of the first examples of a machine which would have ended something was the cotton gin. Had it come along earlier slavery may have ended sooner because the cotton gin could do the work of numerous slaves. Tractors replaced horses, seeders replaced people hand seeding. It's an ongoing process.
                  I am looking at this from the standpoint of the workers. Mechanization ensures that all unskilled farm laborers are without jobs. The basic point is that keeping aliens off the farms is not going to help the lives of American workers (or seasonal immigrants for that matter).

                  If machines were more efficient than seasonal immigrant labor, farmers would use them. In addition, from what I have heard, the machines developed for things like picking fruit and vegetables preclude allowing the crops to ripen.

                  By the way, the word "sabotage" comes from the Industrial Revolution in manufacturing, when French laborers threw shoes (sabots) into machines because the machines were taking away their jobs.
                  Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                  Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DAL View Post
                    ).

                    If machines were more efficient than seasonal immigrant labor, farmers would use them. In addition, from what I have heard, the machines developed for things like picking fruit and vegetables preclude allowing the crops to ripen.

                    By the way, the word "sabotage" comes from the Industrial Revolution in manufacturing, when French laborers threw shoes (sabots) into machines because the machines were taking away their jobs.
                    Depends on the crop. Picking the fruit is different than seeding. You can use a machine more readily to seed. Picking is somethiing people are still better at. However, if you've ever been to a farm the combine does a great job with corn and other crops.

                    Weeding is also still better done with human hands, but, given time machines will probably end up doing the picking and weeding. Not necessarily agree with it, just as society advances people tend to lose jobs. Look at the auto industry.

                    You've seen Star Trek 6 I see
                    A Veteran is someone who at one point in their life wrote a blank check made payable to The United States of America, for an amount up to, and including their life. That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today, who no longer understand that fact!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ray8285 View Post
                      Depends on the crop. Picking the fruit is different than seeding. You can use a machine more readily to seed. Picking is somethiing people are still better at. However, if you've ever been to a farm the combine does a great job with corn and other crops.

                      Weeding is also still better done with human hands, but, given time machines will probably end up doing the picking and weeding. Not necessarily agree with it, just as society advances people tend to lose jobs. Look at the auto industry.
                      I do not disagree with you. People have to acquire skills to make a good wage.

                      Picking fruit and weeding are precisely the things that seasonal farms workers are used for in California. Because these are unpleasant, seasonal, migrant jobs, few Americans want them even though they pay above the minimum wage. So I do not see these types of unskilled immigrants competing with Americans.
                      Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                      Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What about truck driving, the service industry and housing construction? Those were well paying jobs that middle class employees of aerospace and the automotive industry could do before illegal aliens undercut them. With the import of highly skilled foreign labor (from countries such as India) into the computer industry, Americans are being displaced there too. Why hire a qualified American for high tech, when you can import an Indian (under contract) for less money?
                        "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DAL View Post
                          For TheKansan:

                          Apparently, you concede that not enough Americans are willing to weed the fields and pick crops. Why is mechanization superior to giving jobs to starving people? It also results in harvesting produce long before it is ripe, yielding lower quality.
                          Plenty of Americans would weed fields and pick crops if they could live comfortably doing it. The fact that many illegals are willing to live in poverty (poverty in the US is a much better standard of living than they had in their home countries) is the only reason they don't demand higher wages as well.

                          I don't support using illegal immigrants for anything. I support seasonal farm worker programs.

                          Illegal aliens unionizing is ridiculous. They should be deported.
                          What would stop those who come here for seasonal work from just staying after the season is over? Do their kids attend american schools while they live here? What about children born to these seasonal workers while here? You see the issues at hand would not be solved, and we may very well end up in the exact same situation, with a bunch of people sneaking into the US under the premise of being a "seasonal worker", but just staying illegally.

                          I totally agree with everything else you said though.


                          Nearly all the advocates for illegal immigrants are Democrats, as are most union members. These groups clearly have conflicting interests. That will prevent Congress from passing any immigration reform legislation.
                          Very true. I don't see a shift to the republican party for many, but I do see more democrats and democratic elected officials who strongly oppose illegal immigration.
                          What is Perseverance?
                          -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
                          -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
                          -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


                          BOP - BPA - ICE

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pulicords View Post
                            What about truck driving, the service industry and housing construction? Those were well paying jobs that middle class employees of aerospace and the automotive industry could do before illegal aliens undercut them. With the import of highly skilled foreign labor (from countries such as India) into the computer industry, Americans are being displaced there too. Why hire a qualified American for high tech, when you can import an Indian (under contract) for less money?
                            This is the problem. It's always assumed by some that illegals only do the jobs that are unskilled and unwanted. The problem is that the more illegals that come into this country, the more we have seen workers in skilled fields displaced.

                            I can tell you there are many plumbers in the KC area who are illegals. Imagine spending years to master that skill, only to be undercut in price by a company that uses illegals willing to work for half of what you need just to make a living.
                            What is Perseverance?
                            -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
                            -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
                            -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


                            BOP - BPA - ICE

                            Comment

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