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  • what do you think of this vid?

    ongoing debate between me a few of my buddies. your opinions. is this simply a curtilage issue?

    http://break.com/index/sheriff-allow...respass2b.html

  • #2
    I'm no expert on Constitutional law and anybody that knows me knows I'm not a liberal ACLU cheerleader, but this is chilling. I heard it was going on in the PROC but I had no idea it is happening in other states too....My intuition tells me that the 4th amendment applies to ALL government agencies not just the law enforcement community.......In the situation shown here I would have to believe the property owner has an excellent basis for a civil rights violation lawsuit(Her agency should have obtained a search warrant IMO.) Curtilage or not, the facts are that she is acting as an agent of the government, she is there to search for apparently a code violation (law broken) and the owner has refused her permission to come onto his property. If this is legal, this country has taken a very dangerous turn for the worse IMO.
    Jubilant Patriotic Republican

    America gave Obama the benefit of the doubt when they elected him. Obama is now giving America the doubt of the benefit of his governance......Change you can bereave in!..JPR

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JPR View Post
      I'm no expert on Constitutional law and anybody that knows me knows I'm not a liberal ACLU cheerleader, but this is chilling. I heard it was going on in the PROC but I had no idea it is happening in other states too....My intuition tells me that the 4th amendment applies to ALL government agencies not just the law enforcement community.......In the situation shown here I would have to believe the property owner has an excellent basis for a civil rights violation lawsuit(Her agency should have obtained a search warrant IMO.) Curtilage or not, the facts are that she is acting as an agent of the government, she is there to search for apparently a code violation (law broken) and the owner has refused her permission to come onto his property. If this is legal, this country has taken a very dangerous turn for the worse IMO.
      No, it would fall under the plain view exception. She can clearly see the violation from the road. She can also clearly see the junk laying around everywhere. Both are probable cause. Also, we are able to come onto your property to do VIN inspections on any vehicle present anytime we feel the need. Public health issues come before individual rights in many cases, and from what little we can see, it applied here.
      Fighting the good fight, one beer at a time.

      "Defense aint for no nice people." Neamiah Warrick, first year starting Saftey, Michigan State University 2006

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      • #4
        Originally posted by lawhog View Post
        No, it would fall under the plain view exception. She can clearly see the violation from the road. She can also clearly see the junk laying around everywhere. Both are probable cause. Also, we are able to come onto your property to do VIN inspections on any vehicle present anytime we feel the need. Public health issues come before individual rights in many cases, and from what little we can see, it applied here.
        If the violations are visible from the street, why the search? Why not just cite him for the visible violations? Also, I thought probable cause is the basis for a search warrant, not an actual search. Does the vin inspection include garaged vehicles or just vehicles in plain sight? Furthermore, could you please define "feel the need"?

        As far as "public health" issues coming before Constitutional rights, how long do think it will take for the anti-gun crowd to find some judges who will apply this logic to looking for unsafe firearms?

        I'm sorry, but unless there is an urgent and compelling reason to take immediate action, this citizen in no way sees this consistent with the 4th amendment without a search warrant.

        Btw, in my community, these people enter and search residences under the "public health issue" banner. I will say it again. This is a very dangerous turn onto a very slippery slope.
        Jubilant Patriotic Republican

        America gave Obama the benefit of the doubt when they elected him. Obama is now giving America the doubt of the benefit of his governance......Change you can bereave in!..JPR

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        • #5
          For your edification:
          http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/c...nt04/04.html#3

          You can demand a warrant for someone to enter your home, or even the curtilage, but not for the yard, even if fenced and posted.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by JPR View Post
            If the violations are visible from the street, why the search? Why not just cite him for the visible violations? Also, I thought probable cause is the basis for a search warrant, not an actual search. Does the vin inspection include garaged vehicles or just vehicles in plain sight? Furthermore, could you please define "feel the need"?
            It is only to obtain photographs of the violation. I think you need to know more about search and seizure laws, you do not understand the exceptions or what they mean and how they apply. Not an insult, just that I can not carry on a debate with someone who does not understand them. And feel the need means just that. If I feel the need I can come on your property and check VIN numbers. Any vehicle in plain sight is open to this, even garaged vehicles if the door is open to the road.

            As far as "public health" issues coming before Constitutional rights, how long do think it will take for the anti-gun crowd to find some judges who will apply this logic to looking for unsafe firearms?
            Unless the unsafe guns are in plain view how would government officials and officers know they are there? Sorry, this line of thinking does not apply here. This is apparently a specific case of a man violating some health codes in his yard for the world to see. Do not read more into it that there is, or any possible implications inside your home. They are two totally different animals when it comes to search and seizure.

            I'm sorry, but unless there is an urgent and compelling reason to take immediate action, this citizen in no way sees this consistent with the 4th amendment without a search warrant.
            Well, if you are talking about the video you are probably wrong. If you are talking about checking VIN numbers on you property, you are also probably wrong. But, to be fair, I am only talking about Michigan law. I do not know anything about other states.

            Btw, in my community, these people enter and search residences under the "public health issue" banner. I will say it again. This is a very dangerous turn onto a very slippery slope.
            Well, I do not know anything about this. But, if law provides an outlet for that there is probably nothing that can be done. Remember, we do not live in a completely free society. In fact, the Constitution pretty much spells that out for us. We are about halfway between completely free Capitalist, and a Socialist country. I would have to say they are probably using the "For the Good of the welfare of the community" banner.
            Fighting the good fight, one beer at a time.

            "Defense aint for no nice people." Neamiah Warrick, first year starting Saftey, Michigan State University 2006

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            • #7
              Frankly, this guy is just playing a game. He thinks he can sue the Health Inspector for doing her job. the case won't go anywhere and this yokel needs to file his complaint ans shut up. Those of you who think this trailer trash piece of scum is exercising his rights have never dealt with slum lords or hazardous and dangerous dwellings. This is not a constitutional issue, it's somebody who is probably violating a bunch of codes and doesn't want anyone to tell him what to do. Next time we hear from this guy, he'll be holed up in his trailer with a rifle and a flag.
              Jerry
              "If all else fails, stop using all else!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Maybe this guy is a low lifer and then maybe he isn't...it isn't really material.. and IMHO should not even be a consideration in the mind of a professional law enforcement officer..I'm satisfied at this point that this is probably the law but in this citizen's mind it is a bad and dangerous law..I will say it again, unless there is an urgent and compelling reason to take immediate action, I believe a search warrant should be obtained before government agents mount a search for code or law violations on private property. Here in California, the people were duped into legalizing marijuana by voting for a ballot initiative. I say the people were duped because the ads urging people to vote for it mislead the people (including me) into thinking it was legalizing pot for people with terminal illnesses. I figured sure, why not. Give them heroin if it makes them feel better (which I understand is a legal prescription drug in Europe). Then the night before the election, I followed my routine of READING these propositions I was about to vote on. Toward the end of the pot proposition I found a key phrase listed after the terminal illness purpose which read (or any other medical condition for which it might be beneficial.) In lawyer talk this means two BIG things. "Might" means there does not have to be any evidence it will help and "medical condition" includes "mental and emotional" conditions. There was also no mention as to where the supply was to come from. Needless to say I voted against the law.That one phrase virtually blows up all but 1 remaining obstacle for ANYBODY to legally buy grass. And that is you need a prescription from a doctor. From those in the know, the doctors giving these prescriptions are easy to find. I hear you pay them $ 200 and they give you your prescription. Just because a law exists does not mean it is a righteous law or even a constitutional law. In essence, man's laws are simply the result of a person or group of people with the power to impose their will on society. The power to make law does not in and of itself justify said law. I guess there is one question left that I would like to ask you who feel that there is no problem with the the issue raised in this thread. The next time you are out of uniform and at home in your recliner or favorite chair ask yourself if you feel comfortable with the idea of government agents snooping around your property or in your garage (if you left the door up) and doing the same at your parent's property, or your sibling's property, or your children's or grand children's property because they "feel the need."

                p.s. I recognize that Law Enforcement does not have the luxury to pick and choose what laws they will or will not enforce so I just want to make it clear that I do not fault law enforcement for bad laws. That being said though, I don't believe there is a requirement for you to necessarily believe all the laws you are duty bound to enforce are necessarily good laws.
                Last edited by JPR; 05-09-2007, 02:56 AM.
                Jubilant Patriotic Republican

                America gave Obama the benefit of the doubt when they elected him. Obama is now giving America the doubt of the benefit of his governance......Change you can bereave in!..JPR

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SA13 View Post
                  For your edification:
                  http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/c...nt04/04.html#3

                  You can demand a warrant for someone to enter your home, or even the curtilage, but not for the yard, even if fenced and posted.
                  This was from the paragraph you posted:

                  ''[A]n individual may not legitimately demand privacy for activities conducted out of doors in fields, except in the area immediately surrounding the home.''

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Part of the reason I have strong feelings on this subject, is because the first time I heard of it was here in my state. I heard a public official describing how said official went to people's residences accompanied by local law enforcement for "security" purposes. Said official would then search inside the residence accompanied by LE looking for health and safety code violations. Said official stated in the past they sought search warrants but were denied so now they just do the searches and so far it has worked out ok.......

                    I think we are more than half way to a socialist republic.....and way more than half way here in California... And from reading this thread, I'm not so sure anymore that it is much better in other states than it is here in California.
                    Last edited by JPR; 05-09-2007, 12:49 PM.
                    Jubilant Patriotic Republican

                    America gave Obama the benefit of the doubt when they elected him. Obama is now giving America the doubt of the benefit of his governance......Change you can bereave in!..JPR

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mech View Post
                      This was from the paragraph you posted:
                      ''[A]n individual may not legitimately demand privacy for activities conducted out of doors in fields, except in the area immediately surrounding the home.''
                      Yeah, and you'll notice I mentioned the "curtilage." That is the area immediately surrounding the house, NOT the whole yard. Usually it's just a few feet around the house. Basically the cops can't walk up and press their nose against your windows, but a health inspector, cop, county surveyor, etc, etc, can walk in your yard.

                      I strongly suggest you do some serious study of the Constitutional Law, including the 4th Amendment and relevant caselaw, to include the Open Field Doctrine and curtilage.
                      Last edited by SA13; 05-09-2007, 09:31 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The only way this issue will be resolved, is if this SPECIFIC case goes to the Supreme Court. There have been many cases of this kind, and most of the time, the court will just look at prior case law and will have to issue a judgement based on the decisions brought upon in prior cases.
                        I DON'T FIGHT TO WIN, I FIGHT TO SURVIVE.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Anyone think that the police should refuse to assist a code enforcement or health inspector perform their lawful duties? If some of you are concerned that we are becomming a socialist state, how about worrying that the we will become a lawless one instead. Then you can handle everything yourself. Sometimes "principles" gets confused with common sense. Having a code enforcement officer wait for a warrant is why so many of our cities are starting to look like Mexico or any other third world rat hole. Sorry, but you gotta follow the health codes if you're gonna live amongst us.
                          Jerry
                          "If all else fails, stop using all else!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Socialist republic /that be the left

                            Originally posted by JPR View Post
                            Part of the reason I have strong feelings on this subject, is because the first time I heard of it was here in my state. I heard a public official describing how said official went to people's residences accompanied by local law enforcement for "security" purposes. Said official would then search inside the residence accompanied by LE looking for health and safety code violations. Said official stated in the past they sought search warrants but were denied so now they just do the searches and so far it has worked out ok.......

                            I think we are more than half way to a socialist republic.....and way more than half way here in California... And from reading this thread, I'm not so sure anymore that it is much better in other states than it is here in California.
                            This case involves the yard, Plian view, not the inside of the home. Trespass doesnt apply to L.E in performance of their duties. The trailer trash lives like a pig and he has that right. He also has the right that if disregard of healthy conditions endangers the community or violates the health code he can loose his property until its taken care of. Sorry you think PLAIN VIEW/CURTILEDGE searches need to meet the same expectation of privacy to get a warrant as a home search. The supreme court ruled on that years ago. And they disagree with you.
                            "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The MARINES don't have that problem." ....Ronald Reagan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Amen brother

                              Originally posted by jerrymaccauley View Post
                              Anyone think that the police should refuse to assist a code enforcement or health inspector perform their lawful duties? If some of you are concerned that we are becomming a socialist state, how about worrying that the we will become a lawless one instead. Then you can handle everything yourself. Sometimes "principles" gets confused with common sense. Having a code enforcement officer wait for a warrant is why so many of our cities are starting to look like Mexico or any other third world rat hole. Sorry, but you gotta follow the health codes if you're gonna live amongst us.
                              Couldn't agree with you more. I cant believe there are actually cops that think otherwise. Any cop who has been exposed to actually working in a city or county going into these trailer parks and ghettos most realize that it's the socialistic welfare, goverment tip abused socialistic Programs" that assist tearing this country and our neighborhoods apart. Those who claim L.E. expericence and think liberal policies work either never really worked the street or just talk the talk for political favor to win votes because of their postition in an office. What that guy should have done was strip down naked and stand in his window of his living room while that girl did her search. Thats just to add some humor but it would have been funny.
                              "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The MARINES don't have that problem." ....Ronald Reagan

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