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  • #31
    Originally posted by Virus
    The only claim I've posted is that it'll keep you from getting really sore after workout.

    Physique: Maximizing muscle recovery for serious athletes.

    Physique was tested with nine highly trained cyclists. During each of three test periods, athletes rode for two hours with an alternating workload that reflected race-like conditions. Immediately and two hours after every ride, athletes drank one of three drinks: Physique, with its uniqe carbohydrate-protein combination formula (40.5 f protein, 112.5 g carbohydrate);a protein drink reminiscent of the "muscle" drinks popular with body builders(40.5 g protein); and a carbohydrate drink similar to the "carboload" products on market (112.5 g carbohydrate). These were consumed as a 16 ounce beverages.

    Results of the study confirmed that the carbohydrate-protein combination of Physique elicited a greater insulin response in the blood than the carbohydrate or protein supplements alone. The greater insulin levels produced by Physique's Protein-carbohydrate formula also led to a greater increase in the rate of muscle energy stored (glycogen) in the four-hour period following exercise than either the carbohydrate or protein supplements alone.

    Reference; 1. Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis III B, Ivy JL.
    Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise.
    Journal of Applied Physiol
    1992;72:1854-9
    Nine bikers......Nine. "Highly trained". Three test periods. Unique carbohydrate-protein combination formula. A protein drink reminiscent of the "muscle" drinks popular with body builders. Journal of Applied Physiol dated 1992.

    Irrespective of the fact that muscle glycogen levels and post-workout soreness are NOT RELATED TO EACH OTHER - you are making this **** up. No doubt in my mind.
    Last edited by krj; 07-23-2005, 11:33 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Virus
      This is absolutely untrue. This article is defamatory and entirely untrue.
      As a "consumer" how on earth can you comment so definately on the so-called "inner workings" of this company? And why are you so vehement about defending a multi-billion dollar corporation's integrity? What the hell do YOU care?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by krj
        Nine bikers......Nine. "Highly trained". Three test periods. Unique carbohydrate-protein combination formula. A protein drink reminiscent of the "muscle" drinks popular with body builders. Journal of Applied "Physiol" dated 1992.

        Irrespective of the fact that muscle glycogen levels and post-workout soreness are NOT RELATED TO EACH OTHER - you are making this **** up. No doubt in my mind.
        How in the hell can I make up an article and site the exact publication and people who wrote the article? Here are 2 more published studies. They are references. If you want, you can take the time to look them up. They give the exact information needed to look them up.

        Dietary Supplements Affect the Anabolic Hormones after Weight Training Exercise. Chandler, Byrne, Patterson, Ivy. J Appl Physiol 1994;76:839-45.

        Pre-Exercise Hypervolemia and Cycle Ergometer Endurance in Men. Greenleaf,
        Looft-Wilson, Wisherd, McKenzie, Jensen, Whittam.
        Biology of Sport 1997;14:103-14

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by krj
          As a "consumer" how on earth can you comment so definately on the so-called "inner workings" of this company? And why are you so vehement about defending a multi-billion dollar corporation's integrity? What the hell do YOU care?
          One, because it's not inner workings. A coworker whom I trusted, asked me to give them a try after seeing that I had really bad allergy problems. He said, if after a month they didn't work, I could get my money back. They worked. Thus the health nut started. I used to be such a freakin health nut it wasn't funny. So I did a ton of research on different companies. This was years ago. Regarding defending the company. I am self admittantly a loyal user of whatever products I decide upon. I'm the same way with the Motor Oil I use, the Sonicaire toothbrush I use, the home theater equiptment I have, etc. I'm just anal. I apologise if I offended anyone. My intentions were good and just wanted others to benefit from the research I had done on my own time. If not, I wish everyone the best. I just don't like seeing people spend money on things that aren't clinically proven to work. (with regard to supplements) I'm not saying other supplements don't work, what I'm trying to convey is, "how do you know they work", without the research to back it up. Hopefully you can take the time, write each company and see what research they have done.
          Last edited by Virus; 07-23-2005, 11:28 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by krj
            Virus, do they also provide links to the actual published results themselves, or just what you provided (ie. a list of research papers)? Just curious.

            QUOTE VIRUS: It's been clinically proven and published in 3 referee and peer reviewed journals. It'll keep you from getting sore even after really pushing your lifting. UNQUOTE

            What's a referee manual?

            There's no supplement that will "keep you from getting sore even after really pushing your lifting". There are two types of muscle soreness:

            1) Soreness you feel while, or immediately after exercising
            2) Soreness that you feel 1-3 days after a strenuous exercise workout

            The first is related to a buildup of lactic acid in muscles that actually leaks out of muscle cells and stimulates nerve endings (that ultimately causes the sore and stiff feeling). This excess lactic acid is removed quickly (and naturally by the body) (usually within an hour of exercise). Some of the lactic acid is metabolized in the actual muscle cell in which it was produced - the rest is carried to the liver as lactate, where it is also broken down.

            The second type of soreness (latent soreness or delayed onset muscle soreness - DOMS) is not so cut and dry, but there is a general belief right now that this type of soreness is related to very small tears to the connective tissues that hold individual muscle fibers together within the muscle (as well as some tearing of the membrane of the muscle cells).

            The point (again) is that you can't eat yourself out of muscle soreness. When you DO work harder than your body is really capable of (and we've all done it), if we rest, our body does what it needs to do naturally to get us healthy again.

            Looked at your link quickly, but two things jumped out immediately:

            1. the dates of the research - much of it is very old
            2. the names of the researchers - I arbitrarily picked just two names out of all the the research you listed (Spiller and Jensen) - and let's just say that they are prolific researchers............

            That's not to say that it's NOT legit - but I wrote something the other day on here about having a healthy skepticism for stuff you read from ALL sources (including this forum).

            Companies can have a way of making their "research" appear and sound scientifically valid (especially for the benefit of lay people ie. the consuming public). And it's not unheard of (especially re: the supplement industry which currently is unregulated ie. they can make any claims they want and don't have to prove any of them) for them to either:

            a) just make this **** up or
            b) go through some of the motions of "research" (with funding coming from the company and supplied to "researchers" who are also funded by the company)
            With referee or peer review journals, such as the Journal for the American Dietetic Association or The New England Journal of Medicine, you basically can't make it up. I don't have the exact process in hand anymore, but it basically goes like this. The research is submitted, an editor that is well versed in the subject at hand reads over the material. If everyone looks in order it makes it to step 2. 85% or all research submitted to JAMA is rejected at this stage. Step 2. MD's, PHD's and other specialists in this exact field look over the data meticulously. This can sometimes take up to a year. Then it's published for everyone to critic. If another MD for example performs the research to the tee and doesn't come out with the same results, the article will be pulled. It took my wife over 2 years to have this published.

            http://www.bloodjournal.org/cgi/cont...e=bloodjournal

            Comment


            • #36
              You can also find someone who will sell it too you at MN or member price, take it immediately after workout and then again 2 hours later. If it doesn't keep you from getting sore or much less than you are used to, return it. You shouldn't be hassled at all for retuning anything. I purchased stuff from them before and didn't like it and had no problems returning it.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Virus
                You can also find someone who will sell it too you at MN or member price, take it immediately after workout and then again 2 hours later. If it doesn't keep you from getting sore or much less than you are used to, return it. You shouldn't be hassled at all for retuning anything. I purchased stuff from them before and didn't like it and had no problems returning it.
                Just couldn't leave well enough alone, could ya?

                I'm not going to look up the published studies that you cited, because I am certain that they are as comprehensively and meticulously researched as the FIRST one you cited. And by the way - Looft-Wilson, Patterson and Wittam are more examples of those "prolific researchers" I was talking about earlier (but not to forget our friend Jensen, who is also cited again in one of your two study references).

                VIRUS QUOTE: I'm just anal. I apologise if I offended anyone. My intentions were good and just wanted others to benefit from the research I had done on my own time: QUOTE

                I don't know what your intentions were, and I don't know who or what you are - and I don't take offense to anything anyone has to say of a personal nature on an internet forum.

                But nothing you have said in the Health and Fitness section has added up - not your claims of "awesome awesome products that prevent post-workout soreness", your so-called research (that is not only unrelated to your claims, but is also highly suspect in its' implementation and results), your steadfast determination to defend a company that (from all appearances) seems to be doing quite well without your vehement loyalty, your "broken record" posts of "buy it and return it if you don't like it" - but geeze, I'm just a consumer, not a distributor - REALLY!

                Anyone who gives the APPEARANCE of unbiased opinion, presents obviously WRONG information as factual information, and then tries to back it up as FACT by citing highly suspect and very official looking (but in the end totally unrelated) "research" - yeah, that offends me.
                Last edited by krj; 07-24-2005, 10:35 AM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by krj
                  Just couldn't leave well enough alone, could ya?

                  I'm not going to look up the published studies that you cited, because I am certain that they are as comprehensively and meticulously researched as the FIRST one you cited. And by the way - Looft-Wilson, Patterson and Wittam are more examples of those "prolific researchers" I was talking about earlier (but not to forget our friend Jensen, who is also cited again in one of your two study references).

                  VIRUS QUOTE: I'm just anal. I apologise if I offended anyone. My intentions were good and just wanted others to benefit from the research I had done on my own time: QUOTE

                  I don't know what your intentions were, and I don't know who or what you are - and I don't take offense to anything anyone has to say of a personal nature on an internet forum.

                  But nothing you have said in the Health and Fitness section has added up - not your claims of "awesome awesome products that prevent post-workout soreness", your so-called research (that is not only unrelated to your claims, but is also highly suspect in its' implementation and results), your steadfast determination to defend a company that (from all appearances) seems to be doing quite well without your vehement loyalty, your "broken record" posts of "buy it and return it if you don't like it" - but geeze, I'm just a consumer, not a distributor - REALLY!

                  Anyone who gives the APPEARANCE of unbiased opinion, presents obviously WRONG information as factual information, and then tries to back it up as FACT by citing highly suspect and very official looking (but in the end totally unrelated) "research" - yeah, that offends me.
                  I would like to know how it's unrelated. Post workout recovery is post workout recovery, it doesn't matter if you are lifting weight, running a marathon or riding the Tour de France. Also if you look at the 2nd study, you will notice it is specifically related to "weight training".

                  The reason you see their names on the studies is because that is their area of expertise and of course they work for the company.

                  Are you going to discredit these people also:

                  Yasuhiko Kojima, M.D.
                  President and Chairman of the Board
                  Interferon Herb Research Institute
                  Areas of Expertise: Interferon, Immune Science, and Kampo Medicine

                  Dr. Yahuhiko Kojima received his Doctor of Medical Science degree from Tokyo University in 1964. Before receiving his degree, he was employed at Tokyo University Institute of Medical Science. Dr. Kojima's experience also includes serving in senior advisory roles at Kitazato Pharmaceutical and Yamanouchi Pharmaceutical. Currently, he is president and chairman of the board at The Interferon Herb Research Institute.

                  In 1954, Dr. Kojima and a colleague, Dr. Yasuichi Nagano, discovered interferon-inducing activities in Chinese herbal medicines. Since then, their groundbreaking insights have generated an enormous body of scientific literature on interferon, antiviral, and anticancer immune responses in animals and humans, now a burgeoning and active and area of research. Dr. Kojima holds no less than 30 patents for interferon inducers and related processes as they relate to Chinese herbal medicines. Most notably, Dr. Kojima engineered and created the natural-based formulation for Shaklee
                  Last edited by Virus; 07-24-2005, 11:47 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Well, now, I'm completely convinced: Virus is clearly just a consumer/end-user with absolutely no personal interest at all in Shaklee as a company, KRJ. You're way too skeptical these days, and you really shouldn't treat him like one of those obnoxious idiots who bombs Website boards, chat rooms, and on-line forums with commercial endorsements veiled as "conversations." Virus is just a very thorough individual who does his research before recommending any product he uses to strangers, about whom he cares enough to type volumes in support of the manufacturers he trusts. Is that so hard to believe?

                    Virus, I'm in the market for several other types of products at the moment, that, as a consumer, surely, you use as well: I need a new mattress, refrigerator, and my tires are due for replacement, too. Forget about these skeptics here, OK? Please just post all the research you've done as an informed consumer, so that I might benefit from your thoroughness and get the best value for my money on a mattress, frig, and tires, too. Thank you.
                    No longer ignoring anybody here, since that psycho known as "Josey Wales" finally got the boot after being outed as a LE imposter by B&G978. Nice job.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I hear Mary-Kay makes a good vitamin supplement! And I'm not just saying that because I want a pink Cadillac
                      Cowboys in town. Trouble expected.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        [QUOTE=ProWriter] you really shouldn't treat him like one of those obnoxious idiots who bombs Website boards, chat rooms, and on-line forums with commercial endorsements veiled as "conversations." QUOTE]

                        OK, that makes sense. I don't really visit many of those sites, and didn't realize that this practice was commonplace.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by PTI
                          I hear Mary-Kay makes a good vitamin supplement! And I'm not just saying that because I want a pink Cadillac
                          PTI you didn't strike me as a pink Cadillac kinda guy - not that there's anything wrong with that.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Pink Caddy stocked full of Mary Kay vitamin supplements=Chick magnet Not that I'm endorsing Mary Kay or anything thats just what I've read in some studies I saw on the net.
                            Cowboys in town. Trouble expected.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ProWriter
                              Well, now, I'm completely convinced: Virus is clearly just a consumer/end-user with absolutely no personal interest at all in Shaklee as a company, KRJ. You're way too skeptical these days, and you really shouldn't treat him like one of those obnoxious idiots who bombs Website boards, chat rooms, and on-line forums with commercial endorsements veiled as "conversations." Virus is just a very thorough individual who does his research before recommending any product he uses to strangers, about whom he cares enough to type volumes in support of the manufacturers he trusts. Is that so hard to believe?

                              Virus, I'm in the market for several other types of products at the moment, that, as a consumer, surely, you use as well: I need a new mattress, refrigerator, and my tires are due for replacement, too. Forget about these skeptics here, OK? Please just post all the research you've done as an informed consumer, so that I might benefit from your thoroughness and get the best value for my money on a mattress, frig, and tires, too. Thank you.
                              Tempur-Pedic Mattress is what I purchased. It was really hard to find any good reviews on them as most of the websites were selling it that rated it high. I did find a few good reviews on them that seemed unbiased. I had some good friends that had a Sleep Member bed which I also found a few good review sites. I was able to try the friends sleep member bed as well as visiting the store and found the Tempur-Pedic better for my personal sleeping habits. The wife agreed. The only complaints I saw on the Tempur-Pedic was that some people found that during summer months the mattress made them too hot. So far it's been great. I have their pillows as well. Make sure you purchase the Pillows according to your height and weight. For tires, I found a ton of usefull review sites, the best being tirerack.com. I personally liked the Michelon Pilots, although the price point is rediculous. Consumer Reports also had a very good write up on them. I deleted most of the tire links to clean the computer out. But, I found a wealth of info on different car forums that I frequent that supplied these great links. Refrigerators, unfortunately I don't have any information on. My home is only a year old and we purchased the most expensive refrigerator they offered. My mother-in-law has been selling appliances for the better part of 20 years and she was consulted before purchasing it. It's a top of the line GE. Coffee Maker, I chose a Presto Scandinavian. Costco had them for $35 and tons of people on many coffee forums recommended this drip maker because it reached 200+ degrees farenheit which is ideal for making coffee. I also purchased the Swiss Gold filter which is widely considered the best filter for drip coffee makers, making them taste very similiar to French Press. Appliances I generally choose Kitchen Aid. Many good reviews and good feedback from customers. Motor Oil, I use Amsoil. Amsoil has been shown time and again the best motor oil out their. www.bobistheoilguy.com has a wealth of information on this. Although I state Amsoil is the best, the truth is it's lead is paper thin these days as Redline, Neo and especially Mobil 1 have almost come abreast of Amsoil. Air filters, I chose Apexi because it provided the best flow/filtration rates. Oil filter, I chose Mobil 1. Mobil 1 filters are made by Champion Labs. I have numerous review sites that have tested a ton of oil filters and the Mobil 1's construction vs. PSI flow rates always seem to come out on top. Stone manufacturer for my $40,000 patio I just had done was EPHenry. EPHenry consistantly puts out superior looking stone with a warranty that can't be matched. For childrens car seat I chose Britax. Again lots of great reviews from review sites and customer feedback. Radar Detector, well I chose a Valentine One. This is a tough choice however as the Escort X50 and Bel RX65 are really abreast of the V1. Fortunately, I had 2 cowokers once of which had the RX65 and the other had an X50. I purchased the V1 and tested them myself in real world experiences. I found V1 better in off Axis detection and it's Laser Detection unmatched. It also fit better in my car and had an available remote display. You can't beat those arrows. There are several review sites such as www.speedzones.com, www.radarbusters.com and www.radartest.com. For home theater stuff, this is more difficult as the sky is the limit on prices. There are literally hundreds of review sites and many unbiased review sites. Great forums as well. I chose the Pioneer Elite 56TXi for my Receiver and the Pioneer Elite 59AVi for my DVD player. I have Mirage Omni speakers. Very subjective speakers. You either like them or not. Lastly I decided based on the before mentioned review sites and especially www.avsforum.com's customer feedback, I purchased a 65" Mitsubishi RPTV. Being anal as I am, I had it ISF calibrated at a cost of $500 after it was a month old to get the best picture possible from the television. RPTV may be old, but after it's been ISF calibrated, their is no better HD picture. Only RPTV's can display pure black. DLP's have done a really good job catching up and have a much better field of view with no burn in to worry about. Plasma, well they just plain stink. I install plasma's at all of my companies sites and they always burn in, even if the picuture continuously moves. Real honest people on that board. I would love to discuss any of these topics with anyone here, I will point you to the forums that are appropriate for this type of discussion and we can discuss this at length. If I can learn something from someone else more knowledgeable, I only become a better more informed consumer. Like I said, I am anal about just about all products purchased.
                              Last edited by Virus; 07-25-2005, 08:33 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I'll also state this. If Amsoil, Shaklee or whomever's products I use cease to become the best, I'll have no problem changing product. Although not all products are have scientific evidence to back them up, alot do. Integrity in a company is crucial. I always go with the science wherever possible. After all, my wife is 29 years old, has a PHD from George Washington Medical School and a law degree from George Mason University. The Patent Office paid for her law degee. Me, I learn a great deal from her background with regard to science. She worked for 4 years at the National Cancer Institute in Frederick, MD. She worked there while attending GW. That is where she was able to have her papers published on "Lynn" which I posted a link to earlier. She received many awards from this paper as did the others who worked on it. It was a break through in cancer research and if you take the time to look it up, you will see tons of people now use her research as reference. I'm a Global Network Engineer. I design networks for our company and travel to Naval and Marine bases throughout the world and implement them. This year I was able to go to Hawaii 2 times, Guam, Okinawa and Pensacola twice. Slow year.
                                Last edited by Virus; 07-25-2005, 08:42 AM.

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