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  • Virus
    replied
    You can also find someone who will sell it too you at MN or member price, take it immediately after workout and then again 2 hours later. If it doesn't keep you from getting sore or much less than you are used to, return it. You shouldn't be hassled at all for retuning anything. I purchased stuff from them before and didn't like it and had no problems returning it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Virus
    replied
    Originally posted by krj
    Virus, do they also provide links to the actual published results themselves, or just what you provided (ie. a list of research papers)? Just curious.

    QUOTE VIRUS: It's been clinically proven and published in 3 referee and peer reviewed journals. It'll keep you from getting sore even after really pushing your lifting. UNQUOTE

    What's a referee manual?

    There's no supplement that will "keep you from getting sore even after really pushing your lifting". There are two types of muscle soreness:

    1) Soreness you feel while, or immediately after exercising
    2) Soreness that you feel 1-3 days after a strenuous exercise workout

    The first is related to a buildup of lactic acid in muscles that actually leaks out of muscle cells and stimulates nerve endings (that ultimately causes the sore and stiff feeling). This excess lactic acid is removed quickly (and naturally by the body) (usually within an hour of exercise). Some of the lactic acid is metabolized in the actual muscle cell in which it was produced - the rest is carried to the liver as lactate, where it is also broken down.

    The second type of soreness (latent soreness or delayed onset muscle soreness - DOMS) is not so cut and dry, but there is a general belief right now that this type of soreness is related to very small tears to the connective tissues that hold individual muscle fibers together within the muscle (as well as some tearing of the membrane of the muscle cells).

    The point (again) is that you can't eat yourself out of muscle soreness. When you DO work harder than your body is really capable of (and we've all done it), if we rest, our body does what it needs to do naturally to get us healthy again.

    Looked at your link quickly, but two things jumped out immediately:

    1. the dates of the research - much of it is very old
    2. the names of the researchers - I arbitrarily picked just two names out of all the the research you listed (Spiller and Jensen) - and let's just say that they are prolific researchers............

    That's not to say that it's NOT legit - but I wrote something the other day on here about having a healthy skepticism for stuff you read from ALL sources (including this forum).

    Companies can have a way of making their "research" appear and sound scientifically valid (especially for the benefit of lay people ie. the consuming public). And it's not unheard of (especially re: the supplement industry which currently is unregulated ie. they can make any claims they want and don't have to prove any of them) for them to either:

    a) just make this **** up or
    b) go through some of the motions of "research" (with funding coming from the company and supplied to "researchers" who are also funded by the company)
    With referee or peer review journals, such as the Journal for the American Dietetic Association or The New England Journal of Medicine, you basically can't make it up. I don't have the exact process in hand anymore, but it basically goes like this. The research is submitted, an editor that is well versed in the subject at hand reads over the material. If everyone looks in order it makes it to step 2. 85% or all research submitted to JAMA is rejected at this stage. Step 2. MD's, PHD's and other specialists in this exact field look over the data meticulously. This can sometimes take up to a year. Then it's published for everyone to critic. If another MD for example performs the research to the tee and doesn't come out with the same results, the article will be pulled. It took my wife over 2 years to have this published.

    http://www.bloodjournal.org/cgi/cont...e=bloodjournal

    Leave a comment:


  • Virus
    replied
    Originally posted by krj
    As a "consumer" how on earth can you comment so definately on the so-called "inner workings" of this company? And why are you so vehement about defending a multi-billion dollar corporation's integrity? What the hell do YOU care?
    One, because it's not inner workings. A coworker whom I trusted, asked me to give them a try after seeing that I had really bad allergy problems. He said, if after a month they didn't work, I could get my money back. They worked. Thus the health nut started. I used to be such a freakin health nut it wasn't funny. So I did a ton of research on different companies. This was years ago. Regarding defending the company. I am self admittantly a loyal user of whatever products I decide upon. I'm the same way with the Motor Oil I use, the Sonicaire toothbrush I use, the home theater equiptment I have, etc. I'm just anal. I apologise if I offended anyone. My intentions were good and just wanted others to benefit from the research I had done on my own time. If not, I wish everyone the best. I just don't like seeing people spend money on things that aren't clinically proven to work. (with regard to supplements) I'm not saying other supplements don't work, what I'm trying to convey is, "how do you know they work", without the research to back it up. Hopefully you can take the time, write each company and see what research they have done.
    Last edited by Virus; 07-23-2005, 10:28 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Virus
    replied
    Originally posted by krj
    Nine bikers......Nine. "Highly trained". Three test periods. Unique carbohydrate-protein combination formula. A protein drink reminiscent of the "muscle" drinks popular with body builders. Journal of Applied "Physiol" dated 1992.

    Irrespective of the fact that muscle glycogen levels and post-workout soreness are NOT RELATED TO EACH OTHER - you are making this **** up. No doubt in my mind.
    How in the hell can I make up an article and site the exact publication and people who wrote the article? Here are 2 more published studies. They are references. If you want, you can take the time to look them up. They give the exact information needed to look them up.

    Dietary Supplements Affect the Anabolic Hormones after Weight Training Exercise. Chandler, Byrne, Patterson, Ivy. J Appl Physiol 1994;76:839-45.

    Pre-Exercise Hypervolemia and Cycle Ergometer Endurance in Men. Greenleaf,
    Looft-Wilson, Wisherd, McKenzie, Jensen, Whittam.
    Biology of Sport 1997;14:103-14

    Leave a comment:


  • krj
    replied
    Originally posted by Virus
    This is absolutely untrue. This article is defamatory and entirely untrue.
    As a "consumer" how on earth can you comment so definately on the so-called "inner workings" of this company? And why are you so vehement about defending a multi-billion dollar corporation's integrity? What the hell do YOU care?

    Leave a comment:


  • krj
    replied
    Originally posted by Virus
    The only claim I've posted is that it'll keep you from getting really sore after workout.

    Physique: Maximizing muscle recovery for serious athletes.

    Physique was tested with nine highly trained cyclists. During each of three test periods, athletes rode for two hours with an alternating workload that reflected race-like conditions. Immediately and two hours after every ride, athletes drank one of three drinks: Physique, with its uniqe carbohydrate-protein combination formula (40.5 f protein, 112.5 g carbohydrate);a protein drink reminiscent of the "muscle" drinks popular with body builders(40.5 g protein); and a carbohydrate drink similar to the "carboload" products on market (112.5 g carbohydrate). These were consumed as a 16 ounce beverages.

    Results of the study confirmed that the carbohydrate-protein combination of Physique elicited a greater insulin response in the blood than the carbohydrate or protein supplements alone. The greater insulin levels produced by Physique's Protein-carbohydrate formula also led to a greater increase in the rate of muscle energy stored (glycogen) in the four-hour period following exercise than either the carbohydrate or protein supplements alone.

    Reference; 1. Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis III B, Ivy JL.
    Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise.
    Journal of Applied Physiol
    1992;72:1854-9
    Nine bikers......Nine. "Highly trained". Three test periods. Unique carbohydrate-protein combination formula. A protein drink reminiscent of the "muscle" drinks popular with body builders. Journal of Applied Physiol dated 1992.

    Irrespective of the fact that muscle glycogen levels and post-workout soreness are NOT RELATED TO EACH OTHER - you are making this **** up. No doubt in my mind.
    Last edited by krj; 07-23-2005, 10:33 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Virus
    replied
    Originally posted by ProWriter
    I'm not the one claiming that any website, research, or claims are reputable, you are. I just asked what you thought of something that popped up in a very simple search.

    Meanwhile, I'm really curious why it's taking so long to answer the simplest question about a product you've called "awesome" and why you can't offer an immediate, spontaneous, straightforward response, in plain English, as to how the product does all the things you assure us it does, from apparent first-hand experience, and what all the research you list actually established about how it works so much better than other products.
    The only claim I've posted is that it'll keep you from getting really sore after workout. I also don't recall ever posting that it works so much better than any other products. I was stating that without sound scientific evidence, you have no idea if a product is working. That is why credible research always has double blind placebo tests. The power of the mind is pretty amazing. Here is one abstract that is straight forward and very easy to read.

    Physique: Maximizing muscle recovery for serious athletes.

    Physique was tested with nine highly trained cyclists. During each of three test periods, athletes rode for two hours with an alternating workload that reflected race-like conditions. Immediately and two hours after every ride, athletes drank one of three drinks: Physique, with its uniqe carbohydrate-protein combination formula (40.5 f protein, 112.5 g carbohydrate);a protein drink reminiscent of the "muscle" drinks popular with body builders(40.5 g protein); and a carbohydrate drink similar to the "carboload" products on market (112.5 g carbohydrate). These were consumed as a 16 ounce beverages.

    Results of the study confirmed that the carbohydrate-protein combination of Physique elicited a greater insulin response in the blood than the carbohydrate or protein supplements alone. The greater insulin levels produced by Physique's Protein-carbohydrate formula also led to a greater increase in the rate of muscle energy stored (glycogen) in the four-hour period following exercise than either the carbohydrate or protein supplements alone.

    Reference; 1. Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis III B, Ivy JL.
    Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise.
    Journal of Applied Physiol
    1992;72:1854-9

    Leave a comment:


  • AMG
    replied
    Post workout meal........................

    3 tablespoons of amino liquid

    thats it

    Leave a comment:


  • ProWriter
    replied
    Originally posted by Virus
    I'll get to that...by the way, here is the link to the website that your post came from. Very reputable indeed.http://www.escribe.com/food/vegetari...ipes/bb/?bID=1
    I'm not the one claiming that any website, research, or claims are reputable, you are. I just asked what you thought of something that popped up in a very simple search.

    Meanwhile, I'm really curious why it's taking so long to answer the simplest question about a product you've called "awesome" and why you can't offer an immediate, spontaneous, straightforward response, in plain English, as to how the product does all the things you assure us it does, from apparent first-hand experience, and what all the research you list actually established about how it works so much better than other products.

    Leave a comment:


  • Virus
    replied
    Originally posted by ProWriter
    So, no plain English explanation of how Physique does what you've assured us it does. or how it eliminates post-workout soreness?
    I'll get to that.

    by the way, here is the link to the website that your post came from. Very reputable indeed.

    http://www.escribe.com/food/vegetari...ipes/bb/?bID=1

    Leave a comment:


  • ProWriter
    replied
    Originally posted by Virus
    When I get the time, I'll be sure to post a nice long explanation of Physique and how it works. I'll do this if anyone is interested. I prefer not to waste my time trying to prove a product works unless people are truly that interested in the subject. It doesn't appear anyone else is. I'll try to find either the abstracts of the clinical studies that were published or the entire research.
    So, no plain English explanation of how Physique does what you've assured us it does. or how it eliminates post-workout soreness?

    Leave a comment:


  • Virus
    replied
    "Oh wait, maybe you're interested in knowing who the third party companies are that we outsource the making of our products to, because it sure isn't us. Nope, we don't make our own products, other companies do because it's cheaper."

    I did find this particullarly interesting. Shaklee owns and operates one of the largest most advanced nutrional research facility in the world. They absolutely make all of their nutritional supplements. They don't make BestWater products or the Airsource. That's no secret either. Airsource is made by RGF. RFG happens to be one of the largest Air Purification companies in the world. The Chinese government purchased many of their products to help with SARS in their transit system. It's on the RFG website. BestWater is made by Water Factory systems, which is also considered to have some of the best water purification products available. As far as other products, I'm unaware of who makes what other products. I wouldn't be surprised if they outsourced things like makeup, cleaners, etc. I'm just unsure.
    Last edited by Virus; 07-23-2005, 07:19 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Virus
    replied
    Originally posted by ProWriter
    Have fresh poultry, egg whites, fish, powdered milk protein, and whey been clinically tested to "work"?

    Luckilly, I don't bore very easily, at all, so please don't hold back the details. No need for overly technical information or citations, just a simple explanation in plain English about what ingredients in the product pertain to which element of post-workout recovery soreness would be perfect. Exactly how does that product keep you from getting sore from a workout that would otherwise make you very sore? Do you happen to sell Shaklee products at all? Either way, what's your take on this? (Just asking.)

    Shaklee Exposed(Posted by DeepThroat on Mon, 19 Nov 2001 04:19:24)

    Shaklee is a company, it's designed to make money. Unfortunately, I happen to be included in the design. I work for them, corporate, and play their dirty games. I can't come right out and say who I am, let's face it, everyone needs a job, but I figure I can expose a little truth here online. Shaklee pulled several products because of threats from users of class action lawsuits after certified letters started rolling in regarded verified cases of cancer suspected to have been caused by our products, for example our Shampoo. California got smart before any other state. Best water leaks glue into your water, air source will eventually kill you from ozone and lung problems. Write me back if you want to know more, I know anything and everything you want to know, included all the Master's personal info, name, address, home telephone number, everything. I can tell you who is really running the show and why things are happening. Did you know we don't even make our own products? We outsrouce to a third party. You want to know the home/cellular and office number of everyone in copr.? Write me. Wanna hear some actually recorded phone conversations between distributors and Communications and Commerce employees? Their number is (801) 257-5800, they are a totally seperate company in Utah that does telemarketting, etc., that we've hired to take your calls. Distributors brainwash people into buying products. Want to see a copy of a response memo Shaklee sent out to EVERYONE in corp. regarding a recent Attorney General investigation into our products? Oh wait, maybe you're interested in knowing who the third party companies are that we outsource the making of our products to, because it sure isn't us. Nope, we don't make our own products, other companies do because it's cheaper. And the so-called scientists we have working for us, nope, not one of them has a PhD or a medical degree, and most of them don't even techincally work for us. Want to know the reason most of us don't even use the products we sell to you? Because we don't want our families getting cancer. Hey guess what, there are different pricing levels. If you're paying srp, you're getting ripped off. There is SRP, MN, DN and SN, then a "special" title differential payback price for our special distributors. You're all being tacken advantage of us, and the moment there is an actual lawsuit filed against Shaklee, you better believe they pay it off QUICKLY out of court to avoid bad publicity and possibly having years worth of brainwashing undone. You know how you call the 800 number and you think you're talking to a Shaklee person? Nope, that's Communications and Commerce again in Salt Lake City Utah, (801) 257-5800. They are a scam company that works cheap, they don't even know we're ripping them off with a sweet little scam we have with them called Quality Scores.
    This is absolutely untrue. Please check with the Better Business Bureau to find if a company is in good standing or not. Yes they are a multilevel marketing company. No they don't pressure you into buying anything. No they don't have any "amway style meetings". I've also never received any literature from either Shaklee or other distributors with any "brainwashing" type materials. The SRP, MN are listed in every catalog. The DN price tier is no secret and it's not intended to cheat anyone out of money. Think of it like Costco. They buy in bulk so they get things cheaper. If you are able to sell more products you are able to get them a tad cheaper. Generally the MN price is 15% cheaper than SRP. DN prices are about 5-10% cheaper than MN. I have no idea what SN pricing is, but my guess is you would have to be very high up to get this. I'm able to get products at DN pricing. I absolutely do not sell these products. I'm a consumer. Because I get things for my family, brothers, sisters, mothers fathers, inlaws, etc. is why I'm able to purchase things DN. If that gets taken away from me, that's fine. I road it as long as I could. Shaklee also runs everything. They do not telemarket. They are a member of the Board for Responsible Nurtition and are one of only a few "Green" companies in the world. Meaning very little environmental impact. This article is defamatory and entirely untrue. To be honest, this sounds like an employee that feels as though he has been wronged and is lashing out. I would sure like to know what products were pulled back, because they still sell the same core products they sold 10 years ago. Shampoo is the only product I know they changed. They have added quite a few products over the years, but they haven't pulled any. They have changed the name of some supplements to more accurately reflect what they are. Example: Alfalfa Complex instead of Alfalfa. Lastly, let's face it, every company is out to make money. This is no secret. Without a strong business plan, how can a company last over 50 years as Shaklee has. Wal-mart isn't out to make friends with you. They are out to make money off of you. That's what democracy brings us in this fine country.

    When I get the time, I'll be sure to post a nice long explanation of Physique and how it works. I'll do this if anyone is interested. I prefer not to waste my time trying to prove a product works unless people are truly that interested in the subject. It doesn't appear anyone else is. I'll try to find either the abstracts of the clinical studies that were published or the entire research.

    Leave a comment:


  • ProWriter
    replied
    Originally posted by Virus
    The problem with just going a purchasing protein is you have no idea if they have been clinically tested and work.
    Have fresh poultry, egg whites, fish, powdered milk protein, and whey been clinically tested to "work"?

    Originally posted by Virus
    Another poster mentioned Shaklee Physique. Awesome, awesome product. It's been clinically proven and published in 3 referee and peer reviewed journals. It'll keep you from getting sore even after really pushing your lifting. I could go really in depth on post workout recovery, but I'm sure you would get bored so I'll keep it simple.
    Luckilly, I don't bore very easily, at all, so please don't hold back the details. No need for overly technical information or citations, just a simple explanation in plain English about what ingredients in the product pertain to which element of post-workout recovery soreness would be perfect. Exactly how does that product keep you from getting sore from a workout that would otherwise make you very sore? Do you happen to sell Shaklee products at all? Either way, what's your take on what this guy "Shaklee Exposed" has to say about the company? (Just asking.)
    Last edited by ProWriter; 07-23-2005, 08:49 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Virus
    replied
    Originally posted by krj
    Virus, do they also provide links to the actual published results themselves, or just what you provided (ie. a list of research papers)? Just curious.

    Looked at the link quickly, but two things jumped out immediately:

    1. the dates of the research
    2. the names of the researchers - I arbitrarily picked just two names out of all the the research you listed (Spiller and Jensen) - and let's just say that they are prolific researchers............
    Before they listed the bibliography on the website, I was able to call them and have them send specific research in it's entirety. I don't know if they still do that, I'm sure they would. My wife works at the US Patent and Trademark office and she deals with Genetic Patents that are very specific to her field. She is able to pull almost of the research up because she has access to the NIH medical archives. Before this, she worked at the National Cancer Institute and had a couple papers published there. The peer review/referee process is very hard. Call 1-800-742-5533 and see if they will send them. Let us know.

    Leave a comment:

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