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Shot placement discussion coronor's graphic photos linked


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  • Shot placement discussion coronor's graphic photos linked

    I do not shoot in any Law Enforcement or defensive under fire situation, but in my wildest firefire fantasies or nightmares I can not see how anyone in the LE business could fire 107rnds of ammunition and only have 17 hits on the perp at a distance of only 20 feet. That's only a 16% hit ratio.

    Graphic coronor's photos at the link posted so don't click it if that type of thing is upsetting. We can discuss accuracy under fire without looking at gross photos.


  • #2
    Until you are involved in one don't judge those officers...you can't begin to imagine the stress you're under in a situation like that. What's important here is that the link takes us to pics of the bad guy's autopsy and not an officer's.
    Perseverate In Pugna


    • #3
      Right on.

      I think 16% is right around the average for officer involved shootings.


      • #4
        go out and get shot at.

        tell me how well you do.... if you come back alive...
        “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

        "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."


        • #5

          "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and "Live by the gun, die by the gun"

          Looks like he got his wish
          "Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought" ~Henri Louis Bergson



          • #6
            If I am ever there, I hope I am above average because I don't carry 100 rnds on my person when I am out and about. I can't afford a 20% hit ratio.

            This was at the distance of the length of a typical US car, 5 feet less than the distance our club shoots bowling pins at.

            If this was driving a car that would mean one out of 10 emergency manuvers did not wreck the vehicle.

            I really think officers need to practice more with thier tools, I think too many of them think of it as something they have to carry but not be proficient with.


            • #7
              Part of the problem is that most officers dont train to shoot in a high stress environment........far to many officers dont train enough in non-stress situations either......

              Also, once the poo hits the fan, there are alot of physiological changes that happen to most people, which will make them even less accurate.....tunnel vision, loss of fine motor control, rapid breathing, very rapid heart rate to name a few......

              The incident described in the PDF was not just a 'shooting', it was a several minute GUNFIGHT in which the involved officers are fighting for their lives....I would imagine that more than a few of those rounds were suppression fire, not directed fire......

              This incident reinforces the motto that 'bullets dont work'......you must continue to engage your threat until he is down for the count.....
              The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

              "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

              "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"


              • #8
                What he ^^^ said is true.

                Simunitions (sp) is probably the closest "feeling" to a fire fight. It is way different to shoot at a man with one hand on his hip and stands still....than to have someone shoot back at you.

                Who knows how they are going to react in a real case incident. As long as the bg ends up on the slab.....and you get to go home...good job! It doesn't matter if it took one bullet or several.

                The LA shootout was thousands of rounds..........and the end result was slab time x 2.
                This profession is not for people looking for positive reinforcement from the public. Very often it can be a thankless job and you can't desire accolades, because those are not usually forthcoming. Just do your job to the best of your ability and live with the decisions you've made.


                • #9
                  When your bowling pins shoot back, call me.
                  How many people have missed bowling pins because they shot to fast?
                  Are the bowling pins moving or stationary?
                  Try this at your next shoot, do 30 jumping jacks, 20 push ups, runs 25 yards to the firing line, all the while someone is shooting a blank gun close to your head and put a time limit of 60 seconds for the whole event.
                  See how many of those evil bowling pins you knock down then.
                  I do agree with your assessment that officers need to practice more.
                  However, not every department provides practice ammo and they do not exactly throw money at Police Officers.


                  • #10
                    I am glad that the gangsta wannabee punks practice less than anyone else.

                    The fact that bowling pins do not shoot back is even more reason that I would want to have a better hit ratio. I have never done any force on force but would like to, but have done plenty of shooting after 50 to 100yds of forward run in competition, I am not a stand in one place static shooter. If you are fully satisfied with a 17% hit ratio at 20feet distance like in that report more power to you and good luck. If that ever happend to me and I only got a 17% hit ratio, it would be my wake up call to either get better with my tools or quit the business. I know that after a 75yd run in the middle of an mild asthma attack I can put a 3rnd burst from an MP5 into the Azone of an IPSC target at 50yds. Then I fall over out of breath after the stage, but up to the point of passing out due to lack of oxygen I can hit a target.

                    Like I said I am glad that the bad guys are even worst shots than average.


                    • #11
                      What's your hit ratio while laying across the seat of a patrol car, taking rounds, trying to get your seat belt off, breaking leather, and praying to God???
                      Walking the line...all give some...some give all!


                      • #12
                        you're not making any friend or proving any points David =) the fact is there is nothing in this world you could ever do to replicate those circumstances. we are trained to use suppresive fire if needed. i'm sure a mag or 2 of that would make my hit ratio fall as well.
                        Perseverate In Pugna


                        • #13
                          David, I am sure you are a great shooter and that will HELP in a lethal force encounter however it will not gaurantee that your brain won't take a dump.

                          Unfortunately the average "badguy" who is inclined to shoot at police has FAR more experience in lethal force encounters than the officers he is going against. We have far more "banger on banger" shootings than we do OIS.

                          As mentioned, simunitions is about as close as you can get without actually using live rounds. When the scenario is setup correctly it can trigger some of the same physical responses. When we run Sims training we have to download the mags to prevent officers from wasting rounds. It does have an added advantage of forcing you to reload under fire. It still isn't the same. I have not been in an OIS (thankfully), but other "actions" in my life have exposed me to threats to my survival. Until you have been there, it's hard to imagine.

                          What it comes down to is the officer survived the badguy didn't.

                          Until we get administrators who realize that it's cheaper to pay for ammo than death benefits we will continue to be behind the power curve.
                          "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                          8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets


                          • #14
                            I have never been shot at but I've been in other life-threatening situations where I had to react quickly. When your life is on the line and you might not live another 3 seconds, you don't really think. What happens is instinct.

                            If the officers point their guns in the general direction of the shooter, they are doing as well as I would probably do. If they hit him, they are probabaly doing better than I could.

                            Because there are officers out there risking their lives and being judged for a low hit rate during a rapidfire gunfight, I can safely take as long as I want at the range and not care if my hit rate turns out to be 1% or 100%


                            • #15
                              "The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the suspect in the ankle."

                              Sounds like the Suspect was making good use of cover and concealment unsaid is how much of the suspects body was visible to the officers involved and as has been stated in many of the replys here most of those rounds were probably supressive fire. It seems likely that since even the officer with the rifle didn't have a shot except the one from under the vehicle until he was able to flank the bad guy the officers involved probably had no target to shoot at. I am sure you've noticed all the possibles and probablies in this post which is the best I am able to do since I wasn't there being shot at from concealment by an unknown assailant. Of cousre David if you have some more insight into this incident than is available in the blog you posted I'd sure like to hear it.

                              Seems like there are just a bunch of folks who enjoy pointing out the "mistakes" of the police with no idea of what the actual facts were.


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