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  • M16 carrier in an AR15

    Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
    Be careful with FA carriers in a semi - people have been charged with constructive possession like that.
    Please post where anyone has been charged with "Constructive Possession" for having an M16 Carrier in a AR15.

    (continued from here: http://forums.officer.com/forums/sho...t=81462&page=8 )
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
    8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

  • #2
    Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
    Please post where anyone has been charged with "Constructive Possession" for having an M16 Carrier in a AR15.
    It seems to me that any manufacturer selling a weapon with an FA BCG would also be compicit in the crime of "Constructive Possession" ...and if BATF turns their heads on this then they too are quilty of entrapment. Possibly open to RICO conspiring against law abiding citizens who purchase what is presented to them as a legal weapon when according to BATF it is not.

    What P***es me off the most is that BATF can probably get away with it unless you have a boatload of money to defend yourself.
    sigpic

    "Po Po coming through!" all rights reserved DJS



    'Do we really need 'smart bombs' to drop on these dumb bastards?'

    http://www.snipercompany.com/

    M16/AR15/M4 Armorer

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    • #3
      Originally posted by zeplin View Post
      It seems to me that any manufacturer selling a weapon with an FA BCG would also be compicit in the crime of "Constructive Possession" ...and if BATF turns their heads on this then they too are quilty of entrapment. Possibly open to RICO conspiring against law abiding citizens who purchase what is presented to them as a legal weapon when according to BATF it is not.

      What P***es me off the most is that BATF can probably get away with it unless you have a boatload of money to defend yourself.
      If they charge you, you beat it. Plain and simple. I highly doubt the ATF is going to charge you with "constructive possession" as your only charge. It wouldn't stick. I think that charge is just an "added" charge to the list of someone they want to bust bad.

      I have not seen "Full Auto Bolt Carrier" under the NFA.
      “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

      "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

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      • #4
        Originally posted by justhomp View Post
        If they charge you, you beat it. Plain and simple. I highly doubt the ATF is going to charge you with "constructive possession" as your only charge. It wouldn't stick. I think that charge is just an "added" charge to the list of someone they want to bust bad.

        I have not seen "Full Auto Bolt Carrier" under the NFA.
        I hope you're right. I figure since my 'BCG's arent fully shrouded I don't have anything to worry about. Just if I bought another and it was fully shrouded I wouldn't know if it was FA or SA. How can you tell?
        sigpic

        "Po Po coming through!" all rights reserved DJS



        'Do we really need 'smart bombs' to drop on these dumb bastards?'

        http://www.snipercompany.com/

        M16/AR15/M4 Armorer

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        • #5
          What's the difference in the bolt carrier? I've never examined both all that closely, but it seems the main difference would be in the sear.

          BATF, I would think, would have bigger fish to fry than this menial charge. They're up to the butts in alligators right now. I've only seen one ATF agent in the 12 years I've been on my current job, and he managed to get himself attached to the PD in the next county. He worked as an officer there before going Fed.
          "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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          • #6
            The FA/M16 Bolt Carrier has a shrouded firing pin, full circle construction and the bottom of the carrier comes far enough forward to trip the autosear on a full auto lower.

            The problem that we run into is that people don't understand the BATFE DOES NOT MAKE LAWS. The BATFE DOES NOT INTERPRET LAWS. The BATFE is charged with ENFORCING current law. They can only decide if they have Probable Cause to charge you with a Federal Crime. The BATFE is to the Federal Government like a Police Officer is to the City/State they work in.

            The BATFE will issue opinions then change them at will. You are NOT SAFE in following BATFE opinion. You need to READ THE LAWS and decide how you are to best comply with them. If you buy off the rack NEW weapons, have a gunsmith maintain them and never alter them, then you will be OK. The weapons manufacturers and your gunsmith will err on the safe side since the BATFE watches them closely.

            When you start building/modifying weapons or collecting restricted weapons is when you need to know the fine points.

            26 U.S.C. sec. 5801 defines a Machinegun as:

            The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
            Lets break this down.

            The first part is pretty easy.

            any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger
            This means if you hold the trigger down and it goes "bang..bang..bang" etc. you have a Machinegun and it better be owned by the US Government or on the NFA Registry.

            Next...

            The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon
            Even if you remove ALL parts from a M16 it is still a Machinegun until it is destroyed.

            any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun
            This is the first half of the "Constructive Possession" argument. If you bend a paperclip and attach a rubberband so that it can cause a weapon to fire more than one shot per action of the trigger, you are in possession of a machinegun regardless of if you actually install the parts. This also applies to the "post-86 autosears" you see in SGN and other for sale sites. DO NOT EVER BUY A CONVERSION PART unless it comes on a BATFE Transfer.

            and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person
            This is second half. If you have enough M16 parts on hand to turn your AR15 into a Machinegun you are IN POSSESSION OF A MACHINEGUN. It dosent matter if they are in the safe, closet, buried under the floor, etc. If you have access to them, it's Constructive Possession.

            Here is the confusion. What parts actually MAKE it a Machinegun?

            Here is the skinny. If you take a PROPERLY FUNCTIONING AR15, you can install every part of the M16A1 parts kit EXCEPT:

            1. Autosear
            2. Disconnector
            3. Selector

            Those three parts should never, ever, ever be in your possession unless you have a registered M16. They have no purpose in an AR15 and fall under the "solely intended for a machinegun" category.

            The real problems develop if you have any non-SP1 (AR15) configuration parts and your rifle doubles. Now a crafty prosecutor can show the jury that you installed M16 parts INTENDING to make your AR into a machinegun.

            If you want to be safe, don't use the following parts:

            1. Hammer
            2. Trigger
            3. Disconnector
            4. Autosear
            5. Selector

            Any other M16 parts are fully compatible with your AR15. The M16 bolt carrier can actually increase the reliability of your weapon due to the shrouded firing pin and the extra mass.

            Just know this. If you have a malfunction and end up in Federal Court, no amount of internet posts are going to do you any good. Do what YOU feel is right and prudent. If you don't know the law and don't know what you are doing, stick with AR15 only parts and buy them from a reputable dealer. (I have seen M16 parts in AR15 lowers on gunshow counters).
            Last edited by Blackdog F4i; 03-14-2008, 12:46 PM.
            "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
            8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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            • #7
              I'm a wuss

              I'll stick to ar-15 parts, bolt carrier included.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ThursCo View Post
                I'll stick to ar-15 parts, bolt carrier included.

                Right, but if you buy a Colt 6920, you will be getting an M4 barrel, M4 FSB, M4 handguards, M4 FSB, M4 stock, M4 receiver extension, M4 flash suppressor, M4 bolt, M4 firing pin, AND AN M4 CARRIER.

                No biggie... ATF opinion letters have repeatedly stated (to Colt's lawyers) that as long as the part doesn't make the rifle shoot fully automatic, it is just fine.

                Since there is NO WAY for a FA carrier to make a rifle shoot automatically, it's not a big deal.
                J. Wise

                AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                sigpic

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                • #9
                  It may have been mentioned before but, what is the BENEFIT of having a FA carrier? I remember jwise mentioned at some point in another thread that it was heavier. I just ask to know if its worth it to specifically look for one in a semi auto AR.
                  Last edited by 135dB; 03-14-2008, 04:36 PM. Reason: .
                  -"He detested failure more than anything else, even betrayal. Betrayal required intelligence and ruthlessness, failure only stupidity or lack of concentration."
                  -Daniel Silva

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 135dB View Post
                    It may have been mentioned before but, what is the BENEFIT of having a FA carrier?
                    If you have a AR carrier with a full circle rear and a shrouded firing pin, then there is little benefit. I have a RRA "Enhanced" carrier in my M4. I would not see any benefit from swapping for a FA carrier. However I have an M16 surplus BCG in my HBAR that is MP Tested and was $50 or so cheaper than the RRA component. Sadly they are all gone now and hard to find. New FA carriers run about the same price as the SA carriers. Now most manufacturers build "enhanced" carriers. The only difference is the surface that would normally trip the sear is set back too far to accomplish this.

                    If you have an old school AR carrier where the hammer can catch on the FP and an open rear, then there are a couple of benefits. The main one being you will be returning the machine to it's original design specs, not the bastardized PC specs Colt came up with to please the lawyers.
                    Last edited by Blackdog F4i; 03-14-2008, 05:13 PM.
                    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                    8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I like the M16 BCG because it fully shrowds the firing pin. Maybe Zep will repost his pictures of his bent firing pin...
                      “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

                      "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by justhomp View Post
                        I like the M16 BCG because it fully shrowds the firing pin. Maybe Zep will repost his pictures of his bent firing pin...
                        [IMG][/IMG]
                        sigpic

                        "Po Po coming through!" all rights reserved DJS



                        'Do we really need 'smart bombs' to drop on these dumb bastards?'

                        http://www.snipercompany.com/

                        M16/AR15/M4 Armorer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You can post all the opinions you like, either way it will not get you out of hot water with them if you land in hot water. Just being in LE will not save you. There are numerous ways you can get into deep water with them, this is but one. Either you choose to play smart or choose otherwise. I never said I agreed with the ATFs opinion ever, however that does not change the fact that they are the enforcement section of that part of the law. I personally know several ATF agents who would never arrest alone on a charge like that however there are some that could/would.

                          Also - with a lightning link or DIAS the FA bolt carrier is the critical part needed for FA function. Don't be a fool -regardless of how a rifle is shipped, CYA. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for failure.

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                          • #14
                            Right, but if you buy a Colt 6920, you will be getting an M4 barrel, M4 FSB, M4 handguards, M4 FSB, M4 stock, M4 receiver extension, M4 flash suppressor, M4 bolt, M4 firing pin, AND AN M4 CARRIER.

                            No biggie... ATF opinion letters have repeatedly stated (to Colt's lawyers) that as long as the part doesn't make the rifle shoot fully automatic, it is just fine.

                            Since there is NO WAY for a FA carrier to make a rifle shoot automatically, it's not a big deal.
                            lol when I'm able to afford a colt I will take it into consideration As it stands I can't afford a nice quality upper. I wonder why my little bushmaster catalog is so anal about M16 parts and selling them to anyone without a tax stamp or Class III license?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Lawyers .
                              "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                              8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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