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  • Bottom line, right now, THERE IS NO BETTER bang for your buck deal on an AR15/M4 rifle on the market right now than the Daniel Defense XV. With or without LE pricing, adding on the $250 Black Card Coupon, you can't touch the price for what you are getting. Then if you can get LE pricing, there is no reason to consider anything else.

    The next best deal IMO is the BCM rifle.
    The comments made herein are those solely of author and in no way reflect the opinions of any other person, agency or other entity.

    Surfs Up on youtube!

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    • BCM also has cold hammer forged barrels.
      If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective.

      "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not."
      Thomas Jefferson

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      • Interesting article about barrel making.

        http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/RSgunsmith1/
        sigpic

        "Po Po coming through!" all rights reserved DJS



        'Do we really need 'smart bombs' to drop on these dumb bastards?'

        http://www.snipercompany.com/

        M16/AR15/M4 Armorer

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        • Anyone see this discussion about CMMG quality over on another forum? Interesting stuff.

          http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...highlight=cmmg
          "You won't rise to the occasion - you'll default to your level of training." Barrett Tillman

          "Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts" Sir Winston Churchill


          Speed is fine, accuracy is final.

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          • This is my M&P 15T. Not for sale, but any idea what it's worth? 14.5" barrel, sightmark green laser, Trijicon Reflex sight, Magpul MIAD grip, Digitec high-intensity weaponlight, YHM phantom flash hider, Troy folding battle sights.



            Last edited by RJ-Seattle; 10-24-2009, 12:17 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Surf View Post
              Are you serious? Really? Look again at the 2 links that you posted, and then at the XV.
              Yep, I'm serious. Really. New, and dumb, but serious. And, as it turns out... right.

              Apart from the rails, stock and VFG as Jwise pointed out there's no obvious difference. Yes, I understand that cosmetically there's a difference. Dumb, but not THAT dumb.

              Looking at costs from the DD site, for the price difference th M4s are a good deal for the parts I'd be getting, but if there's really nothing else valuable to spend my $250 rebate card bucks on, then maybe the upgrade isn't as valuable as a whole.

              My question's been answered that the M4 moniker used by DD is a marketing tool rather than a true designation, and that there's not a lot, structurally or operationally, different between the XV and the M4 variants. They've just included some desired upgrades and factory assembled them.

              So, for the second part of my question. If I were to go with an M4 version, are there valuable DD options on which to spend my $250 Card bucks that will make this a superior rifle?
              Thanks.

              Comment


              • More magazines
                If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective.

                "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not."
                Thomas Jefferson

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 5hortbus View Post
                  Yep, I'm serious. Really. New, and dumb, but serious. And, as it turns out... right.

                  Apart from the rails, stock and VFG as Jwise pointed out there's no obvious difference. Yes, I understand that cosmetically there's a difference. Dumb, but not THAT dumb.
                  Hate to burst your bubble but your not right. The cosmetic differences are but a side effect of functionality. A free float quad rail, alternate stock and vertical foregrip are very functional and are intended to improve the shooters ability to use, manipulate and customize the rifle to suit their needs / mission. So, no these are not just cosmetic differences.

                  Looking at costs from the DD site, for the price difference th M4s are a good deal for the parts I'd be getting, but if there's really nothing else valuable to spend my $250 rebate card bucks on, then maybe the upgrade isn't as valuable as a whole.
                  Well if you can't find anything else to spend the $250 rebate card on, then buy from another maker. Then you will be kicking yourself when you want a free float quad rail. Then you will be kicking yourself again, when you want a good sling mount, flashlight mount, optic mount, vert grip, etc....Then you will be telling yourself gee I coulda had all of those extras, on a superior Daniel Defense rifle, for the same price that I paid for this POS base model Bushmaster, that I am spending hundreds on in upgrades to make it only as good as that darn Daniel Defense rifle. Oh and btw, Daniel Defense puts out some of the highest quality "add ons" as you call them. Perhaps then, only after its too late, will you finally have your answer. We can only lead a horse to water so to speak.

                  My question's been answered that the M4 moniker used by DD is a marketing tool rather than a true designation, and that there's not a lot, structurally or operationally, different between the XV and the M4 variants. They've just included some desired upgrades and factory assembled them.
                  Well I don't really agree with the way you interpreted jwise definition of M4. After losing a trademark battle for the rights to the name M4 given to a certain class of rifles by Colt, the courts deemed that M4 become a generic term. Therefore, almost every manufacturer, who makes rifles who fit into this category refer to them as an M4 to designate certain features. While these may not be the true select fire, 3 round burst Colt rifle, it is far from just some type of marketing tool used by Daniel Defense.

                  So, for the second part of my question. If I were to go with an M4 version, are there valuable DD options on which to spend my $250 Card bucks that will make this a superior rifle?
                  Thanks.
                  If you can't figure this one out after this post and the past posts, and what is contained in this entire thread, there is not much I can say. Quite frankly I do not even own a Daniel Defense rifle, but I do own, quite a bit of their "add ons". I own many other makers of AR/M4 type rifles including several of my own custom builds. I have been professionally building / maintaining and using these rifles for many many years. Even though I don't own a Daniel Defense rifle, I have used enough of their rifles and installed more of their free float rails than any other rail (besides Troy), and I don't have to be shot by one of their rifles to know a good deal when I see one.

                  I am not saying that Daniel Defense rifles are "the" best out there, but they are on my prior top tier list right now, and they just happen to be the best bang for your buck. Again, I can only give advice. What you do with it, is up to you. I am not asking that you trust only me, by all means continue to research, especially before you make a purchase as personal as a firearm can be. Often times, these purchases are so personal, that we are often clouded by our own emotions to realize or even admit that we may not have made the right choice and become consumed trying to prove that point.
                  The comments made herein are those solely of author and in no way reflect the opinions of any other person, agency or other entity.

                  Surfs Up on youtube!

                  Specialized Services Group on Facebook!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Surf View Post
                    ...that we are often clouded by our own emotions ... and become consumed trying to prove that point.
                    Surf- put the beer down, and walk AWAY from the keyboard!

                    Lets just leave 5hortbus alone...

                    (You really ought to see all the PMs and Emails I get with all kinds of questions!)
                    Last edited by jwise; 10-24-2009, 12:33 AM.
                    J. Wise

                    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                    sigpic

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                    • I just want thank you guys for the valuable information you've shared and also curse you for giving me the bug.

                      I spend my day now thinking of ways to move some money around to get my rifle. Curses to all of you

                      Should I consider a piston driven set up? I like the fact that it's a cleaner shooting rifle (I hate cleaning my guns). Are there recomended models of these?

                      Which of the EOtechs are good for my basic LE needs? Does the EO allow me to use the iron sights on the DD XV rifle we were looking at?
                      Last edited by leesrt; 10-24-2009, 03:18 AM.
                      Due to the Juvenile bickering and annoying trolling committed by members of this forum I have started an igore list. If your name is listed below I can't see you.

                      CityCopDC, Fire Moose, Carbonfiberfoot, Damiansolomon

                      Comment


                      • hence the name.

                        Thanks for the defense Jwise; but I'm a big boy and can take some legitimate criticism. Surf, that's exactly the info I was looking for. Me being "right" was tounge-in-cheek. From my initial question you can tell that my knowledge is so rudimentary as to be silly. "Add-Ons" is just newbie speak. I know and have a basic understanding of the value offered by these upgrades. Regarding spending my 250, I know its easy to spend it on addl upgrades, but was looking for a shortcut by asking "the pros" what, exactly, from the DD catalog to add to the M4 models. Lazy but honest. I appreciate the additional endorsement (not official, of course) of Surf of the DD rifles. It makes my purchase decision easier. Am I the only one who feels that this thread designed this rifle? Talk about setting the new benchmark! Its worth the exise tax to me to have so many of the features I've been told to look for in a factory built rifle. Thanks to all! Pics when available.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jwise View Post
                          Surf- put the beer down, and walk AWAY from the keyboard!

                          Lets just leave 5hortbus alone...

                          (You really ought to see all the PMs and Emails I get with all kinds of questions!)
                          Sorry, I thought the screen name was "tongue-n-cheek" and not so literal.

                          I actually ignore more stuff when I am having a cold one. I get much more verbose when I am sober. Guess I should drink more.

                          Oh and btw, the emotional about defending a poor rifle purchase was meant for others and I didn't really want to see 5hortbus becoming "that guy". Ya know the type who says, "my rifle is just as good as a Colt" when it clearly isn't. Especially when he could get that Colt or other equally quality rifle for right around the same price right now as some of the lesser quality makes.

                          Originally posted by 5hortbus View Post
                          Thanks for the defense Jwise; but I'm a big boy and can take some legitimate criticism. Surf, that's exactly the info I was looking for. Me being "right" was tounge-in-cheek. From my initial question you can tell that my knowledge is so rudimentary as to be silly. "Add-Ons" is just newbie speak. I know and have a basic understanding of the value offered by these upgrades. Regarding spending my 250, I know its easy to spend it on addl upgrades, but was looking for a shortcut by asking "the pros" what, exactly, from the DD catalog to add to the M4 models. Lazy but honest. I appreciate the additional endorsement (not official, of course) of Surf of the DD rifles. It makes my purchase decision easier. Am I the only one who feels that this thread designed this rifle? Talk about setting the new benchmark! Its worth the exise tax to me to have so many of the features I've been told to look for in a factory built rifle. Thanks to all! Pics when available.
                          I took no offense to your comment and understood your intent. Unfortunately I don't always use smilies and with the lack of verbal inflection of the written word, my post is left open to interpretation.

                          Since the huge demand of firearms (especially certain semi auto types) caused by the current Presidential administration, makers ramped up production in an attempt to fill the needs. Now that the scare is slowing down and getting nearer to normal levels, supply is very very high and demand is leveling off. Now more than ever you can find some very good deals on top notch rifles for about the same price as lesser manufacturers. The DD rifles are a steal and if you want a Colt rifle, prices on one of their best rifles, the 6920, can be had for a very very good deal.

                          Despite what my replies may be, I am trying to help and give sound advice. If I really didn't care, I would say to buy whatever and then say "I told you so", when you figure out that you need to upgrade that POS _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _er rifle, which may cost you hundreds more down the line, when you could have just purchased a much better rifle from the get go, for around the same price.

                          Again as I have stated before in this thread, there are other websites dedicated to the M16/AR/M4 platform of rifles. I might suggest seeking advice or input from other sources in an attempt to validate the information that you are getting here.
                          The comments made herein are those solely of author and in no way reflect the opinions of any other person, agency or other entity.

                          Surfs Up on youtube!

                          Specialized Services Group on Facebook!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Surf View Post
                            IMO, CMMG was a decent middle ground maker that was a good budget buy. They really were never top tier IMO.

                            Also as far as CMMG or DPMS compared to Daniel Defense, quite frankly there is no comparison. Rifle makers do not necessarily or even come close to forging or milling their own parts. They may often be thought of rifle assemblers / finishers and the differences can be quality of testing and the proper assembly of parts. It is the fine tuning such as proper staking of critical area's etc. As an example this may be similar to a 1911 pistol. Several makers may use the same base Caspian frames, but assembly, fit and finish makes the difference. Hope this makes sense?

                            Having said that Daniel Defense uses better parts in general and the final prep fitment, assembly and QC is much better than either CMMG or DPMS.

                            In case anyone wasn't paying attention, this post by Surf demands a second look.

                            I agree to his statements wholeheartedly. CMMG was not "top tier", but they assembled their rifles with top tier parts.

                            CMMG put themselves in the lead as far as I am/was concerned because they offer the best PARTS in their BASE model that I want, and their ordering format allowed me to easily recommend them to those looking to buy their first rifle.

                            Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM) is now offering a very nice product in terms of quality AND value, but they do not offer it in a way that is easy to recommend to the new buyer. It is akin to the LMT, in that the base model upper comes naked, without handguards/bolt/bolt carrier/charging handle, requiring the buyer to forge out on his own to find the right parts that will fit his new rifle. This isn't hard for the experienced AR aficionado, but will leave the newbie quite flustered. In addition, finding a complete AR lower to mate with his BCM upper will take him to a mail-in order form, which is again confusing for a newbie.

                            I've never stated that CMMG is the best product out there, but consistently stated it represented the best value.

                            From pg. #2 of this thread:

                            Originally posted by jwise
                            Originally posted by Tonkatoyzz
                            Now why do you pick the CMMG over the Noveske n4
                            Because I don't have an unlimited budget. Check out the prices I posted for each. That's substantial...
                            A lot of the current criticism (which I've read elsewhere primarily) stems from its "bargain bin" rifles. I've never recommended the bargain bin rifle.

                            If you can find one of the following rifles for a lower or comparable price, I'd recommend you to buy it OVER a CMMG:

                            1) Colt 6920
                            2) LMT
                            3) Noveske
                            4) Daniel Defense
                            5) BCM


                            The CMMG is like a Hyundai. No one promised it would be BETTER than a Toyota, but you get a LOT of standard features for your money...
                            Last edited by jwise; 10-25-2009, 10:18 AM.
                            J. Wise

                            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • Just a little help if anyone does wish to purchase the BCM lower. You can buy it online just like anything else by going to Global Tactical's site. You don't have to do the mail in form like you do if you purchase it direct from Bravo Company. Of course you have to have it sent to a FFL holder but you have to do that either way. They are out of stock right now but they should be back soon.
                              http://02b5218.netsolstores.com/brav...rreceiver.aspx

                              G and R Tactical seems to have them in stock currently. It's 330.00 without a stock. You can get the standard stock for $20.00 or you can choose to have the Magpul CTR ACS or MOE for an additional Charge.
                              http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ategory%3DBCOM

                              Hope that helps if anyone is in the market for a BCM lower.
                              Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

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                              • G&R Tactical sells complete Bravo Company base rifles for a very good price. They also allow you to option and configure it. They have sold many complete BCM rifles and Grant is a very helpful guy to work with.

                                Complete BCM Rifle

                                You can also buy complete BCM uppers and lowers direct from BCM and simply push a couple pins together. Again like G&R Tactical, Paul from BCM is also a serious shooter and a great guy. Customer service is tops with both companies.

                                http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

                                If it were not for the Daniel Defense deals going on right now, this would almost be a coin toss between a BCM rifle and a Colt 6920. The only reason for the Colt over the BCM at this price point is the Colt reputation and potential resale value. Yes I know many people don't sell their weapons.
                                The comments made herein are those solely of author and in no way reflect the opinions of any other person, agency or other entity.

                                Surfs Up on youtube!

                                Specialized Services Group on Facebook!

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