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  • Originally posted by jwise View Post
    Be sure to re-read the thread, as Jawbreaker5 sent me a batch of LMT pictures and they just got uploaded!
    Damn, you should have told me you needed pics!

    Oh wait, did I miss a post asking for them?
    “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

    "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by justhomp View Post
      Damn, you should have told me you needed pics!

      Oh wait, did I miss a post asking for them?
      I didn't want you to violate OPSEC...

      At the bottom of each manufacturer's post, I have written in BOLD caps, "If you have pictures of a [insert brand here], please email them to me."

      I still need pics of a Noveske and a S&W.
      J. Wise

      AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

      "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

      Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

      sigpic

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      • Originally posted by jwise View Post
        I didn't want you to violate OPSEC...

        At the bottom of each manufacturer's post, I have written in BOLD caps, "If you have pictures of a [insert brand here], please email them to me."

        I still need pics of a Noveske and a S&W.
        Touche....

        You must have edited in that part about needing the pictures. I honestly haven't re-read those posts...

        I have neither, however I sense a "Leonidas" in my future...

        You know, I follow OPSEC rules for myself because I'm a very guarded person. Especially on the internet and on this site. This is a completely open to the public forum that people can view anytime, anywhere, and I don't like the idea of people that I don't "know" knowing exactly what "toys" I have.

        I would have sent you "santized" pics of a stripped LMT rifle and blacked out serial numbers for the sake of a complete "guide", but you're good to go now...
        Last edited by JTShooter; 02-23-2008, 03:37 PM.
        “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

        "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

        Comment


        • I'm a little confused about the gas systems. I plan on getting the LMT Monolithic Rail Platform. There are 2 gas systems offered. Carbine and Rifle but both offer muliple barrel sizes from 10.5 inches to 18 inches. I thought carbine gas systems were for short barrels. If I plan on running a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel, which Monolithic Platform would be best between the carbine and rifle? Is there an advantage having the rifle over the carbine?

          Here is a link to the LMT page I was looking at:
          http://www.lewismachine.net/store.php?cid=8

          Thanks for the help!!!!
          Last edited by js308; 02-23-2008, 06:51 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jwise View Post
            So, you're saying the 9mm rifle would be 'adequate.' Why settle for 'adequate', when the 5.56 version is the same size, same weight, but can give you armor penetration? Are you ACTUALLY suggesting this as a BETTER solution to stopping threats than a 5.56 rifle?

            I never said as such, however 9mm has been proven to be an effective round, especially out of a carbine. It has good MV and penetration. No where did I ever state that it is better than .223, read it for what it's worth. You simply dismiss it altogether in lieu of a .22lr conversion, that's not realisitic. The 9mm carbine fills a niche, otherwise tac teams out there would not have them, they would not be in patrol cars either. Not every assailent you meet will have body armor, and in fact few will when on patrol.



            So this would be an argument for buying one for training purposes, right? Well, fine, I don't care how much you spend in training, and I don't care what kind of rounds you shoot in training. But if you argument is that 9mm is cheaper than 5.56, my counter-argument is that .22lr is only $20/1k, and therefore a MUCH better alternative...

            You've missed the point. .22lr is for training, 9mm can be used for training or real world engagement.



            I am at a disadvantage, as I have never actually fired a 9mm AR. I've been told by lots of folks with these rifles (RRA and Colt) that recoil was not any different than the 5.56 rifles, at least as far as they could tell. If you really think it's less, ok, maybe it is. But do you know what? I think if it had the SAME recoil, it would be a better training rifle than the .22lr.

            So you admit you have no experiance with them? So why are you dismissing the option?



            Back in '06 when I was looking into building a 9mm SBR to suppress, I remember budgeting $1k for the project, not counting the lower receiver, tax stamp, or mags. I probably did include optics, as I would have set it up like my patrol rifle (EOTech.) I think I was looking at RRA upper, which was around $600. The lower mag block was about $150 or so, and the new buffer and hammer added another $100 or so. Add the optic and you're over $1k.

            In addition, I was NOT looking at Olympic Arms products. (I wasn't looking at Hi-Point either.) I was keeping my search to RRA for the most part, as Colt only sells complete rifles. The olympic products are not bad at all. Your poke at the hi point has no place in the same paragraph as the olympic, as you've stated before you have NO EXPERIANCE with them, so why are you mouthing off about them?




            Even at $600 or so, it's a LOT more than the mere $189 for the Ciener kit, and you don't need multiple mags for the .22lr, as it is STRICTLY a training tool, or plinker, not a fighting carbine. The 9mm CAN and IS a fighting carbine, the .22 is NOT. You're comparing APPLES to ORANGES.



            I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY agree. A short-barreld 9mm upper with a suppressor is a FANTASTIC weapon, as it gives the user a significant tactical advantage.

            I personally would like a 9mm upper, as it would be cheaper to shoot, still produces SOME recoil (which, let's face it, that's what makes it fun!), and is still an acceptable self-defense round, especially out of a longer barrel.

            Now you just made my point....lol, and contradicted your previous statements.

            I just have a REALLY hard time justifying such an expense, as it does NOT give me any benefit over what I've already got. Half the price in ammo with adequate performance within 200 yards, which most engagements occur... well I see the benefit. You can carry more ammo as well for less cost with good terminal ballistics.

            Is it fun? Yeah! Do you HAVE to justify a firearm purchase as a "tactical weapon", No! It's legal, it's fun, so if you want one, get it! Variety is the spice of life.

            But this is a buyer's guide, and I don't intend to advise ANYONE to buy a pistol caliber rifle in lieu of the "real thing." LOL! You should be advising them to buy a "real" caliber rifle to begin with then. .308.

            Fair enough? I don't know, what do you think big shot?

            Comment


            • The 9mm carbine fills a niche, otherwise tac teams out there would not have them, they would not be in patrol cars either.
              What niche does a 9mm carbine fill?
              "Life's goal should not be to show up at your final resting spot in a well rested, well preserved body ready to pass on.... But rather sliding in side ways late for your own passing, tired, beaten down and yelling holy $hit what a ride!!!!!"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GLOCKMASTER View Post
                What niche does a 9mm carbine fill?
                The need for more power, accuracy and range than the pistol, but without the overpenetration of the rifle caliber. Not to mention less flash signature indoors and less noise indoors. That is part of the reason Spec Ops teams use suppresors on M4s, to cut down on the noise and flash of the 5.56, adding weight and length to the weapon and sacrificing MV and accuracy in the same process.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
                  The need for more power, accuracy and range than the pistol, but without the overpenetration of the rifle caliber.
                  So why not use a SMG?
                  “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

                  "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by justhomp View Post
                    So why not use a SMG?
                    Some do.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
                      That is part of the reason Spec Ops teams use suppresors on M4s, to cut down on the noise and flash of the 5.56, adding weight and length to the weapon and sacrificing MV and accuracy in the same process.
                      Then why aren't they using the 9mm carbine??

                      I understand what you're trying to do, but there's a reason why the 9mm carbine is in a 'niche' and not the mainstream.

                      Personally I would never use a 9mm carbine for anything but training.
                      “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

                      "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

                      Comment


                      • I understand special units use various SMG's in 9mm (like the MP5) for certian missions and I understand that a given patrol officer may have been given approval to carry a 9mm or .40 caliber carbine (like the Storm). What I want to know is who/what units are being issued a 9mm CARBINE?

                        Not trying to stir the pot I am just curious who is using them and what mods they are using.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
                          The need for more power, accuracy and range than the pistol, but without the overpenetration of the rifle caliber. Not to mention less flash signature indoors and less noise indoors. That is part of the reason Spec Ops teams use suppresors on M4s, to cut down on the noise and flash of the 5.56, adding weight and length to the weapon and sacrificing MV and accuracy in the same process.
                          I don't know what guides your opinion or knowledge, but pistol caliber carbines tend to have more penetration than carbines chambered in .223. Heck even most LE duty pistol ammo fired out of the service pistol has more penetration that a .223 carbine.This sounds like some answer I would expect from some misinformed police administrator.
                          Last edited by GLOCKMASTER; 02-24-2008, 02:22 PM.
                          "Life's goal should not be to show up at your final resting spot in a well rested, well preserved body ready to pass on.... But rather sliding in side ways late for your own passing, tired, beaten down and yelling holy $hit what a ride!!!!!"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by krinkbusta View Post
                            I understand special units use various SMG's in 9mm (like the MP5) for certian missions and I understand that a given patrol officer may have been given approval to carry a 9mm or .40 caliber carbine (like the Storm). What I want to know is who/what units are being issued a 9mm CARBINE?

                            Not trying to stir the pot I am just curious who is using them and what mods they are using.
                            Ok I don’t know of any PD in my area that uses a 9mm carbine, however the last time I checked the Maine State Police were carrying Ruger PC-4’s (.40S&W). The ones I’ve seen had no mod’s and were equipped with the factory ghost ring sights. My department traded our last PC-4 (Now all cruisers are equipped with a selective fire Colt M-4) off last year when we bought new G-22’s. I was a little bit miffed when they traded the Ruger because I had put in a request for a carbine to augment my shotgun. So I still have no carbine in a fighting caliber , and the town got a whole $150.00 trade in value on the Ruger .

                            Oh yes, I should also add that the State Police are transitioning away from the PC-4 to an AR type rifle. The last trooper I talked to didn't have any information on the brand or configuration, just that a swich was taking place.
                            Last edited by fyrdog; 02-24-2008, 05:33 PM. Reason: The sate is going from a pistol caliber to a rifle round
                            Forti Fors Bona

                            Comment


                            • FormerNOPD- I like you, and I was NOT trying to **** you off. I'm sorry if my post sounded "big shot," to you.

                              You stated I contradicted myself, and I might have in your perspective. What I was ATTEMPTING to communicate, is that while I LIKE 9mm rifles, and even WANT a 9mm rifle, I can't come up with ANY tactical reason to have one, as a 5.56 augmented with a 22lr kit serves both roles for less (service and training.)

                              It is difficult to be precise, when in CERTAIN configurations, it is a good choice (SMG), but not in other configs (full length, SA rifle.)

                              If you want one, cool. If you want to carry one on duty, fine. If you want to equip every officer in your department with one, go for it. But it IS NOT an "acceptable" alternative to a 5.56 rifle for general patrol.

                              My department allows us to carry any pistol we want for duty, as long as it is approved by our Range Officer, and we can carry ANY backup we want as well. While we have officers who carry good duty weapons, and good backups, we also have officers who carry NO backups, or only "mouse guns" as backups. FINE. Their call, their life. But that doesn't mean I would ADVISE someone to carry either none, or an itty bitty mouse gun. I advise each officer to carry a subcompact Glock in the same caliber as their duty Glock. That's it. That's my recommendation. I don't recommend revolvers, and I don't recommend 1911s (they both are "low-capacity.")

                              This is my buyer's guide, and I don't feel the need to change my opinion. Sure I like 1911s, Sig 220s, Kahrs, and wheelguns, but I don't believe they offer the same benefits as a pair of Glocks.

                              I don't think one would be "stupid" to carry a 9mm AR on duty. I just think it would be ill-advised. You are giving up much, for little [no] benefit.

                              In addition, if you choose to carry a 9mm rifle, you should be aware of its limitations.

                              When my department started issuing rifles, they put the SWAT team members with individually assigned MP5s in the back of the line. They had to wait a while before enough rifles were available to get theirs. The ones who knew the difference were upset, because they rightfully knew that an MP5 is NO substitute for a rifle. Some don't care, and they have enough trigger time on an MP5 that they are more comfortable with it, and deploy it instead of the rifle to this day. Fine. I don't care. But they should not be SADDLED with only the 9mm, and denied the more effective tool.

                              I would never SUGGEST a pistol caliber rifle to a new officer, and would think it irresponsible to do so.

                              And for what it's worth, I would love to have a .308, or even a 6.8, but my department won't allow it. So I load my 5.56 with the best ammo possible, and carry on.
                              J. Wise

                              AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                              "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                              Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FormerNOPD
                                I never said [a 9mm rifle is better than a 5.56 rifle], however 9mm has been proven to be an effective round, especially out of a carbine. It has good MV and penetration. No where did I ever state that it is better than .223, read it for what it's worth. You simply dismiss it altogether in lieu of a .22lr conversion, that's not realisitic. The 9mm carbine fills a niche, otherwise tac teams out there would not have them, they would not be in patrol cars either. Not every assailent you meet will have body armor, and in fact few will when on patrol.

                                <SNIP>

                                Half the price in ammo with adequate performance within 200 yards, which most engagements occur... well I see the benefit. You can carry more ammo as well for less cost with good terminal ballistics.
                                If it's not better, and is only a niche tool, why would you recommend one? Cheaper ammo? I spend $1/round on my duty ammo, because it is better than the $.50 stuff. I don't mind the cost, if there is a benefit. I believe there is.

                                One of my favorite quotes is this, "if you are armed with a handgun [pistol caliber firearm], you are armed with an inherently weak weapon."

                                If you don't know about the hydrostatic effect of rifles, then read up.

                                Originally posted by FormerNOPD
                                You've missed the point. .22lr is for training, 9mm can be used for training or real world engagement.
                                I didnt MISS the point, I DISmissed it. 9mm isn't BETTER than 5.56, and I have no desire to carry "adequate" arms. I want the best. That's why I went out and bought a .45acp to carry on duty, instead of carrying the issued pistol.

                                Originally posted by FormerNOPD
                                So you admit you have no experiance with them? So why are you dismissing the option?
                                So if I've never shot one, I must be completely ignorant about them, eh? No. I did my homework, which I believe is evident.

                                Originally posted by FormerNOPD
                                The olympic products are not bad at all. Your poke at the hi point has no place in the same paragraph as the olympic, as you've stated before you have NO EXPERIANCE with them, so why are you mouthing off about them?
                                Again, I did my homework. I don't use hobby-guns as fighting arms. Sorry.

                                Originally posted by FormerNOPD
                                The 9mm CAN and IS a fighting carbine, the .22 is NOT. You're comparing APPLES to ORANGES.
                                At that particular point in my post, I was discussing the merits of using them as training tools. I believe I made the distinction elsewhere.
                                J. Wise

                                AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                                "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                                Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                                sigpic

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