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  • #91
    Originally posted by justhomp View Post
    BLASPHEMY!!!
    Huh??? Blasphemy?

    A suppressed, .22lr semi-auto from the AR platform is AWESOME! Just imagine what the neighborhood cats think about it!

    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by exdrip View Post
      Are there conversion kits for an M4 to make it more like an H&K 416? By that I mean, putting in a piston system instead of using ejecting gas to push the bolt back.
      Yes, the GSR-35 kit from Ares Defense supposedly does this, and Bushmaster supposedly is coming out with something similar. Right now they just sell complete gas piston uppers.

      Someone else is making one, too. I think PWS or something like that.

      I have a LWRC M6A1, which is a gas piston operated AR.
      J. Wise

      AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

      "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

      Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by jwise View Post
        Huh??? Blasphemy?

        A suppressed, .22lr semi-auto from the AR platform is AWESOME! Just imagine what the neighborhood cats think about it!

        $189 with a 30rd mag from Ciener. Not bad.

        For neighborhood vermin I prefer my 6.3mm
        sigpic

        "Po Po coming through!" all rights reserved DJS



        'Do we really need 'smart bombs' to drop on these dumb bastards?'

        http://www.snipercompany.com/

        M16/AR15/M4 Armorer

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        • #94
          Originally posted by jwise View Post
          I have a LWRC M6A1, which is a gas piston operated AR.
          Is the gas piston gun significantly cleaner? Are there other advantages? Or is it just hype?

          Comment


          • #95
            Yes it's cleaner. Yes there are other advantages. No it is not just hype.

            However, for most users, the advantages don't come CLOSE to making the additional price worth it.

            Go to www.lwrifles.com and check out the forums there. I'm there under my same screen name. There should be enough answers for all your questions already posted, but if you want to know more, just register and ask away.
            J. Wise

            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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            • #96
              Sorry if I've miss this in this thread but are there any trigger upgrades you reccommend and if so, what would be the pros and cons compared to a standard trigger. Thanks
              -"He detested failure more than anything else, even betrayal. Betrayal required intelligence and ruthlessness, failure only stupidity or lack of concentration."
              -Daniel Silva

              Comment


              • #97
                I never did adress triggers, did I? Hmmm... Well, I have three Rock River Arms 2-stage Nat'l Match triggers, and the rest are stock single stage triggers.

                The advantage of the stock trigger, is the reliability. It is rock-solid and won't change on you.

                I had a Bushmaster adjustable match trigger a while back, but pulled it out because it stopped working. The adjustment screws backed out, and caused a failure. This was not good. The feel of the trigger, however, was exceptional.

                I switched to the RRA 2-stage, because it has no adjustment screws, so nothing can come apart on me. I've heard the RRA trigger might eventually wear down to a single stage trigger, but I have heard only rumors of one actually stop working.

                Other triggers include a bunch of single-stage match triggers, which I do NOT like for a fighting rifle. They are too sensitive, and become a liability. This is not necessarily gospel, but it's my opinion, and that's what you asked for!

                The perfect trigger is the KAC 2-stage, which (just like everything else made by KAC) costs an arm and a leg. More than 2-3X as much as the RRA, which costs $125 or so.

                A 2-stage trigger means it has a "take-up" before the sear engagement. So you can put your finger on the trigger, take out the slack (which is weightless), then take your shot. There are two distinct "stages" to the trigger movement. Kind a like a Glock trigger.

                Single stage triggers have no take-up. Once your finger touches it with enough pressure, it disengages the sear. Some single stage triggers (mil-spec) have lots of movement, while match triggers do not. Match single-stage triggers are like a tuned 1911 trigger, while mil-spec single stage triggers are like a short double action pull.
                J. Wise

                AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                • #98
                  I have to giggle at the "properly staked gas key" comment - this is completely contrary to military teachings of the US Army and USMC. We were taught to stake in the inside middle of the screws on good stake per screw, not two. Never have had a problem building ARs that way or any M16 bolt carriers that I have replaced this way. I think as with everything gun related, the "Proper" way of doing something is somewhat subjective.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by jwise View Post
                    Ahh, the 9mm AR. Or for that matter, the "pistol caliber rifle." Let's look at the concept in general, then we'll look at the AR specifically.

                    The idea of chambering a rifle with a pistol caliber has two originations, and a further advantage. The first reason to do so is to allow ammunition (magazine?) compatibility with your sidearm. Ruger did this, and Kel-Tec has done it as well (others, too.)

                    The second reason, and the primary reason at first, was to give the user a more stable platform to engage the target while keeping the recoil low. This was the driving force behind the adent of the subgun, of which the UZI and H&K MP5 are notorious. They have shoulder stocks, high-capacity magazines, and give the shooter a platform much more controllable on full-auto than a pistol. They kept the compactness and short barrel of a pistol, and simply added weight, a stock, and a stick mag.

                    While the concept of a subgun is sound (full-auto, short-barreled pistol caliber shoulder-fired weapon), when you add a 16" barrel and make it semi-auto only, the benefits disappear and you (should) start wondering why you're lugging around a rifle sized firearm that is chambered in such a weak (comparatively) round. A 5.56 would be a MUCH better firearm to be toting, than a 9mm if you are looking for terminal ballistics (killing stuff.)

                    Now, let's look at it in the AR platform. The rifle ends up being very long, and due to the stock design you can't even make it a folder. The 9mm rifle is relegated to a "toy", or as a range specific firearm for those ranges which don't allow rifles in the pistol bays, but allow pistol caliber rifles. This would be useful.

                    The other concept is as a 'training' conversion. 9mm is cheaper, and recoils less, right? Nope. It's not THAT cheap, and it recoils the same, since the uppers turn it into a blowback operated firearm. But you still might like the idea of a lower cost alternative to the pricier 5.56. You might think, "hey, I can have both with a siimple magwell conversion piece!" Sure you can, but it'll end up costing around $1k for that "conversion" after it's all said and done.

                    In contrast, you can get a Ciener kit that converts an AR into a .22lr for only $150, and .22lr is a LOT cheaper (and it's a "pistol caliber" for those ranges.)

                    So- the only way I get excited about a pistol caliber rifle, is when it's a subgun. The only exception is when it's suppressed. 5.56 suppressed sounds like a .22lr. Pretty loud. However, suppressed 9mm sounds pretty quiet. If your design is to register the receiver as a SBR and put a 8-9" barrel on it, then put a 9mm suppressor on the end, then yeah, I like it!!

                    I disagree with your assessment. 9mm velocities of a 115gr bullet from a 16" barrelled carbine are adequate for stopping power out to 200 yards. The ammo is much cheaper especially if you reload. My cost for 9mm ammo loaded with 115 gr LRN is around $43.00 per K. Recoil is considerably less than .223, as the buffer is heavier than the .223 version. I had 2, only have one now. One is SBR'd at 11.5" the other was an olympic drop on conversion upper that took unmodified sten mags. I tested both that system and my colt system considerably before selling the olympic setup for $570.00 shipped two weeks ago. The system drops on an unmodified lower.

                    I also recently built a complete 9mm colt system AR for a friend of mine. Cost including the BUIS and receiver was just under $800. It is also a good training platform and as you stated, add a suppressor and it's dynomite!
                    Granted the 16" barrel is a bit long for my tastes, but you get the same reaction with a .22lr conversion system as well, with the added expense of very expensive 30 round mags... In fact they're double the price for the same capacity plastic mags of the 9mm.

                    In short - there are drop on reliable 9mm upper systems out there in the $600.00 range new, and 9mm will always be cheaper than .223. Heck, .223 is in the $300.00 range for a case. I can get Winchester 9mm at wally world still for $15.00 a box of 100 rounds or $150.00 per 1000, so it IS that much cheaper than .223, in fact you get double the amount of shooting for the same price as the .223.

                    Comment


                    • With your permssion Jwise, I'd like to print out your guide and share it with a few friends.

                      I'm pretty sure that Oly arms still makes pistol caliber uppers that feed on magazines that they put together. Even my receiver is marked, "multi-cal receiver" or something to that effect (I'm not at home )

                      Comment


                      • Email me, and I'll send you the Word document. It'll be easier to print that way.
                        J. Wise

                        AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                        "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                        Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                        • Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
                          I disagree with your assessment. 9mm velocities of a 115gr bullet from a 16" barrelled carbine are adequate for stopping power out to 200 yards.
                          So, you're saying the 9mm rifle would be 'adequate.' Why settle for 'adequate', when the 5.56 version is the same size, same weight, but can give you armor penetration? Are you ACTUALLY suggesting this as a BETTER solution to stopping threats than a 5.56 rifle?

                          The ammo is much cheaper especially if you reload. My cost for 9mm ammo loaded with 115 gr LRN is around $43.00 per K. <SNIP> 9mm will always be cheaper than .223. Heck, .223 is in the $300.00 range for a case. I can get Winchester 9mm at wally world still for $15.00 a box of 100 rounds or $150.00 per 1000, so it IS that much cheaper than .223, in fact you get double the amount of shooting for the same price as the .223.
                          So this would be an argument for buying one for training purposes, right? Well, fine, I don't care how much you spend in training, and I don't care what kind of rounds you shoot in training. But if you argument is that 9mm is cheaper than 5.56, my counter-argument is that .22lr is only $20/1k, and therefore a MUCH better alternative...

                          Recoil is considerably less than .223, as the buffer is heavier than the .223 version.
                          I am at a disadvantage, as I have never actually fired a 9mm AR. I've been told by lots of folks with these rifles (RRA and Colt) that recoil was not any different than the 5.56 rifles, at least as far as they could tell. If you really think it's less, ok, maybe it is. But do you know what? I think if it had the SAME recoil, it would be a better training rifle than the .22lr.

                          I also recently built a complete 9mm colt system AR for a friend of mine. Cost including the BUIS and receiver was just under $800. <SNIP> In short, there are drop on reliable 9mm upper systems out there in the $600.00 range new.
                          Back in '06 when I was looking into building a 9mm SBR to suppress, I remember budgeting $1k for the project, not counting the lower receiver, tax stamp, or mags. I probably did include optics, as I would have set it up like my patrol rifle (EOTech.) I think I was looking at RRA upper, which was around $600. The lower mag block was about $150 or so, and the new buffer and hammer added another $100 or so. Add the optic and you're over $1k.

                          In addition, I was NOT looking at Olympic Arms products. (I wasn't looking at Hi-Point either.) I was keeping my search to RRA for the most part, as Colt only sells complete rifles.

                          Even at $600 or so, it's a LOT more than the mere $189 for the Ciener kit, and you don't need multiple mags for the .22lr, as it is STRICTLY a training tool, or plinker, not a fighting carbine.

                          ...add a suppressor and it's dynomite!
                          I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY agree. A short-barreld 9mm upper with a suppressor is a FANTASTIC weapon, as it gives the user a significant tactical advantage.

                          I personally would like a 9mm upper, as it would be cheaper to shoot, still produces SOME recoil (which, let's face it, that's what makes it fun!), and is still an acceptable self-defense round, especially out of a longer barrel.

                          I just have a REALLY hard time justifying such an expense, as it does NOT give me any benefit over what I've already got.

                          Is it fun? Yeah! Do you HAVE to justify a firearm purchase as a "tactical weapon", No! It's legal, it's fun, so if you want one, get it! Variety is the spice of life.

                          But this is a buyer's guide, and I don't intend to advise ANYONE to buy a pistol caliber rifle in lieu of the "real thing."

                          Fair enough?
                          J. Wise

                          AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                          "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                          Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                          • The only 9mm weapon (other then a pistol) I'll ever consider buying will be a SMG.

                            A 9mm AR's recoil feels very similar to a standard AR. So for training, it's the cheaper option with training in mind.

                            For a fight? I'll stick to 5.56mm. There's a reason why you don't see combat units running around with 9mm weapons in the primary role. (Exception being CQB and the only people really doing that anymore are the SEALs)
                            “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

                            "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

                            Comment


                            • Hi JWise,

                              Due to the education I received from your post, I went out and bought an LMT lower receiver today. Now my only problem is deciding if I sould get a
                              14.5 inch barrel with a 2 inch supressor (total 16.5 inches) or a 16inch barrel with the 2 inch supressor (18 inches). Any suggestions? A 2 inch supressor is the smallest right?

                              Thanks!

                              Comment


                              • The A2 birdcage flash hider is 1.3" long. It is the shortest that is commonly available.

                                The Smith Vortex, and YHM Phantom flash hiders are the normal most common of the 2" flash hiders.

                                Personally, I don't like anything permanently attached to my rifles. My first AR had a permanently attached brake, as it was a ban-compliant rifle (no threads.) I wanted to install a free float forend, and could not. In order to install the one-piece forend I had, the front sight had to be removed. This was not cool, especially since I had already bought the forend.

                                This isn't such an issue if you know before you buy, but I didn't. You can now get two-piece free float forends, but the point is that I don't like things permanently installed. The forend issue is just an example 'why.'

                                However, if you want the shortest rifle you can get without paying the $200 tax and filling out some paperwork, get the 14.5" w/ perm attached Vortex/Phantom.

                                Congrats on your LMT purchase! Be sure to re-read the thread, as Jawbreaker5 sent me a batch of LMT pictures and they just got uploaded!
                                J. Wise

                                AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                                "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                                Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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